JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

Villian is 22/5/2 over 20 hands

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

BB (t895)
UTG (t1935)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t1735)</font>
<font color="#C00000">MP1 (t1295)</font>
MP2 (t2190)
CO (t960)
Button (t3050)
SB (t1440)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t400</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t1295</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Hero ?

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

People at $6.5's reraise allin with stupid hands. Unless this is one of the few who knows what he or she is doing it's an easy call. Even a good player isn't shoving tight enough to fold here.

May I ask why you raised to 4xbb in the first place?

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
May I ask why you raised to 4xbb in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. 2.5x it. And beat him in the pot.

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
People at $6.5's reraise allin with stupid hands. Unless this is one of the few who knows what he or she is doing it's an easy call. Even a good player isn't shoving tight enough to fold here.


[/ QUOTE ]

So what stupid hands do u think villian is shoving over a 4xBB Pre Flop raise when he has PFR of 5% ??

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

4x BB bc i am in EP and i want to define my hand?
2.5x is too low, people will call you if they have any 2 picture cards on that level.

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
4x BB bc i am in EP and i want to define my hand?
2.5x is too low, people will call you if they have any 2 picture cards on that level.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you mind that?

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

sure i mind it, JJ is weak..
what do you suggest? i dont know why you people want 2.5x BB raise with JJ someone explain?

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
sure i mind it, JJ is weak..
what do you suggest? i dont know why you people want 2.5x BB raise with JJ someone explain?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lucid raises 2.5BB's with anything that he's not shoving.

But yeah, 4BB's is too much, as played this is a snap call, BBV is that way

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

You are getting 2 to 1 to call and you are only a dog to 3 hands. Call.

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People at $6.5's reraise allin with stupid hands. Unless this is one of the few who knows what he or she is doing it's an easy call. Even a good player isn't shoving tight enough to fold here.


[/ QUOTE ]

So what stupid hands do u think villian is shoving over a 4xBB Pre Flop raise when he has PFR of 5% ??

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 22/5 is about the avg 6,5 player. The 5 is more from late levels, early levels they prefer the limp-call.
Most of them are not familiar with odds, neither with fold equity.

That having said I believe his range is about 66+,AT+,KQ and maybe even KJs or some other A-rags.

To prove it I have a hand I played last set (which just finished).

Since I still didn't manage to get pt working on star-sng's I don't have stats but he had done nothing special so far.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">Hero (t1845)</font>
MP (t1478)
CO (t2875)
<font color="#C00000">Button (t1015)</font>
SB (t3782)
BB (t2505)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t275</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t1015</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t740.

Flop: (t2180) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t2180) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t2180) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t2180

Results in white below:
Hero has Ac Kd (high card, ace).
Button has 7h 7s (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Button wins t2180.

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
sure i mind it, JJ is weak..
what do you suggest? i dont know why you people want 2.5x BB raise with JJ someone explain?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really mind getting called with JJ because it plays pretty well postflop. Another reason I raise to 250 (or 275) is that I raise all my hands to the same amount. I prefer that bet to be as low as possible so I can cheaply dump the bottom end of my range after a push and since blinds are high I don't care about giving odds to lower pairs.

I hope this makes sense.

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

I call because of what Lion King made clear; his range definitely includes hands like 77. 2.5/3 x bb is the way to go pre flop. at 100/200 just push.

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
sure i mind it, JJ is weak..
what do you suggest? i dont know why you people want 2.5x BB raise with JJ someone explain?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really mind getting called with JJ because it plays pretty well postflop. Another reason I raise to 250 (or 275) is that I raise all my hands to the same amount. I prefer that bet to be as low as possible so I can cheaply dump the bottom end of my range after a push and since blinds are high I don't care about giving odds to lower pairs.

I hope this makes sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont agree 2.5x BB with JJ is not the way to play. thats too weak if you will fold to any push. a reasonable player will pick on that (IMO)

beside with JJ most of the time a higher card will flop, and you will not know where you stand. but by raising to 4x BB you define your hand more and define the caller hand.

raising to 2.5x BB is only good when you fold AA or KK IMO
i hope more people make comment on the 2.5x BB or 4x BB preflop.

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

Lion King: Was that hand you post against OP villian ? If not it is irrelevent.

Yes most 6.50 donks shove wide and do limp call a lot but you should get into the habit of trying to figure out ranges for each villian action not sticking them in a one fit for all box. We have stats in this case we should at least attempt to use them.

The reason why this is now a call as others have pointed out is that OP raise was too big thus commiting to making a call. He now only needs 36.5% equity to make a call good. Had he raised to t275 he now needs 41% equity and then has to consider what villians range is.

OP Raising 4BB is not bad but your reasoning for doing so is wrong. Raising big to fold out hands that you will gain equity from long term is wrong. You can raise 4xBB with a read that a villian behind will shove wide or call no matter what the size of the raise then its okay.

As you go up in levels adjusting your PF raise levels against the strength of your hand will be explioted by regulars.

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I call because of what Lion King made clear; his range definitely includes hands like 77. 2.5/3 x bb is the way to go pre flop. at 100/200 just push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a neutral call against JJ+,AK.

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

so if i had raised to 275 then i can fold this?

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
so if i had raised to 275 then i can fold this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I definetly would not have been as easy a call as the orginal hand is.

Workout what villians reshove ranges need to be to make a call neutral and then try to figure out if he is actually shoving wider or tighter.

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

alright thanks for the replay. i puted him on AK and called, he shows KK and win.

i seems like folding JJ isnt a good play.

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

arent you getting over 2:1 here?

if anyone *ever* folded this here, they'd be making a grave, grave error.

also, arguing that hands like 77-TT/AQ/AJ are not in his range is absolutely ridiculous at this level IMO.

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
alright thanks for the replay. i puted him on AK and called, he shows KK and win.

i seems like folding JJ isnt a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]


putting him on one specific hand is also a big leak, you need to work on a range and how your hand fares against that range given tournament considerations and odds and stacks. you can pretty much never narrow someones hand range without a read to one specific hand.

also, even after raising to 275 I'd likely be calling here.

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

In a $6 turbo, I would gladly call all-in with JJ regardless of action and pretty much regardless of opponent, unless you have a good amount of hands showing he is tight. I don't think 20 hands is enough to put him on a range, I would default him to the standard $6 turbo player. Not sure about stars turbos and how fast the blind levels go up, but you also need to consider how becoming the chip leader at the table will increase your chances of winning by being able to bully the rest of the table and steal blinds, etc.

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

Both are easy calls, especially in a $6.50. You played fine except for raising a bit smaller initially as other people have said.

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Lion King: Was that hand you post against OP villian ? If not it is irrelevent.

[/ QUOTE ]

You miss my point. We can't tell a push range of a player just by his stats. In my experience 6.5's, even with stats like described villain push with really wide ranges. I posted a 77 hand, I could have posted others, with other weak holdings. They are all irrelevant since no villain is the same and all have different ranges. We can't assume villain here is any different from the rest, but we can't assume he is the same either. I have a standard expectation of a $6.5 player. If I'm off then I make a note and won't do it again.

My whole point is: there is no reason to put him on a different range then another $6.5-er purely based on his stats. In this case it ain't even relevant since we have JJ and will call.

I don't think I made my point about 2.5bb clear. I never bet 2.5bb with JJ with the intention to fold to a shove. I raise to 2.5bb with every hand to be able to get away cheaper from the bottom end of my range. So if I, for instance, raise utg with 99+ and AK and a good player who knows this reshoves I can fold 99 and TT. Just an example. If, in the same example I have AA I also raise to 250 so people never know whether I have 99 or AA. If I raise 400 with JJ, 350 with QQ, 300 with KK and 250 with AA I basically tell people what I have.

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

Call. at least when your already have 400 in the pot. No way you are folding. But JJ is close too a openshove even from UTG. Ofcourse you can raise it but its basicly the same thing as you was shoving allin directly. CALL.

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
arent you getting over 2:1 here?

if anyone *ever* folded this here, they'd be making a grave, grave error.



[/ QUOTE ]
Totally Agree


[ QUOTE ]

also, arguing that hands like 77-TT/AQ/AJ are not in his range is absolutely ridiculous at this level IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was only pointing out the neutral $EV range for this spot is JJ+,AKo. Anything wider then that makes this a call. So whether villians is 99+,AQo or 66+,ATo+,KJs+,KQo it does not really make a difference to the end decision.

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

OT: What do you most ppl do when you find yourself in a spot like this. I whould prob shove JJ, but with a lil weaker hand like 99, what do ya do? its normaly not +EV too shove, so do you fold? or do you limit/2.5xbb raise then fold if one that covers you reraise?

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

[ QUOTE ]
OT: What do you most ppl do when you find yourself in a spot like this. I whould prob shove JJ, but with a lil weaker hand like 99, what do ya do? its normaly not +EV too shove, so do you fold? or do you limit/2.5xbb raise then fold if one that covers you reraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

i 2.5 with my strong hands if i am too deep to shove late. If someone shoves on me with a stack that offers me good odds to call i put it in. If i 2.5 at t200bb with a 4k stack and a 3k stack shoves i usually dump all but premium (QQ+ unless i have a read and can call based on that)

In these spots i think the most important thing to remember is to keep your options open. If you over commit your self pre (4bb) and you don't want to be limp/folding or calling hands that could taking down the pot with a pre flop raise.

the 2.5bb raises should be the norm in your late sng game if you enjoy money.

Re: JJ facing ALL IN $6.5 turbo
 

The other reason your ep raises are typically 2.5 or 2.75 is to allow you to make a cheaper continuation bet with your oop missed AK type hands-- or JJ with one overcard--as well as get action on your monsters. Other people have other default raise sizes. I'm typically 2.5 from ep and sometimes 3 from lp, as 3 looks like a steal from the button in a 6.5. Obviously these sizes are changed by table the dynamic (how loose, is bb a regular that knows what I'm doing, etc).