Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

Villain stacked me for 125bb a couple hours earlier when he 3bet 98o in position against my 77, and the flop came 7TJ. Hurray for FullTilt.

I have no idea what to do here. It seems like there's no amount I can bet that prevents him from set-mining. What's my goal? 4-bet an amount that induces a re-raise? Call and try to get to showdown cheap OOP unimproved? (bleh!) Bomb huge so he can't set mine, but it's super obvious what I have? Rep a misclick?

Full Tilt Poker, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

DrGiggy (BTN): $1,330.50
Potomophobia (SB): $427.80
KimKJ (BB): $142
barelyl3gal (UTG): $416
Hero (MP): $1,681.50
jballer88 (CO): $475

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (MP)
barelyl3gal folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $14</font>, jballer88 folds, <font color="red">DrGiggy raises to $48</font>, 2 folds, Hero ???

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

raise to 150

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

Raise to $200.

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

4bet an amount that both induces 5bet bluffs and doesnt reveal ur hand (raise to 135?). If u think raising bigger gives him the odds anyways and gives away ur hand - seems like betting smaller is the right play. An insta shove could be fun also if u think it could come off as either a misclick or a frustrated play with jacks+ or ak (therefore get looked up by queens, kings and sometimes ak).

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

Anything around 160 should be fine. He can't really set mine all that profitably even if you stack off every time.

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
4bet an amount that both induces 5bet bluffs and doesnt reveal ur hand (raise to 135?). If u think raising bigger gives him the odds anyways and gives away ur hand - seems like betting smaller is the right play. An insta shove could be fun also if u think it could come off as either a misclick or a frustrated play with jacks+ or ak (therefore get looked up by queens, kings and sometimes ak).

[/ QUOTE ]

instashove.... from 12 to 330bb, maybe at 0.01/0.02

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

repping a misclick by entering 1244 like you hit an extra 4 on accident would be sick but i don't think it works here hardly ever.

i'd vary my 4 bet size depending on how frustrated you appear to be vs him. if he thinks ur frustrated i'd probably do 130ish because Giggy is def capable of coming over the top w/ a 5bet bluff. if he isn't going to really think ur bluffing here when u 4bet i would just make it 160-170ish.

also 100bb deep you should be folding that 77 OOP from other hand you mentioned.

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise to $200.

[/ QUOTE ]
Also I should mention that when you're 4bet bluffing, you should be raising to this same size when you're this deep.

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

I'd call unless I had 4 betting history and knew he didn't like to give up/could predict his preflop reactions with most of his holdings.

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

exhibit 1 for why having a tight image sucks

call

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
exhibit 1 for why having a tight image sucks

call

[/ QUOTE ]

i really don't like calling here, but with a tight image 4betting isn't all that attractive either. even with that being said i'd probably make it like 175ish

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

raise it up, they should be able to put u on AK,KK+ , otherwise ur way too tight

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

200 total

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

199.99. just like stores sell stuff a 1-5 cents under the dollar, bet this much so he thinks he's getting better odds.

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
199.99. just like stores sell stuff a 1-5 cents under the dollar, bet this much so he thinks he's getting better odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

this makes the bet much scarier since it involves a lot more chips, so you might actually scare him into folding. bad advice imo

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
199.99. just like stores sell stuff a 1-5 cents under the dollar, bet this much so he thinks he's getting better odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

this makes the bet much scarier since it involves a lot more chips, so you might actually scare him into folding. bad advice imo

[/ QUOTE ]
no thats what he will be thinking you think, good logic imo.

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

$350 but do the same with 9Ts

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

raising to 350 is badddddddd

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

this thread is stupid.

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

[X] Thread delivers

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
$350 but do the same with 9Ts

[/ QUOTE ]

sigh, where do these people come from.

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
$350 but do the same with 9Ts

[/ QUOTE ]

sigh, where do these people come from.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wazz is having a shocker today.

Trendy 2p2 "lines" a-plenty.

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

make it about 200. I really hate calling here. 200 makes it so that he only has implied odds against [AA], and not against any other range

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
$350 but do the same with 9Ts

[/ QUOTE ]

sigh, where do these people come from.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wazz is having a shocker today.

Trendy 2p2 "lines" a-plenty.

[/ QUOTE ]

[censored] off you west country slag. you don't like my line don't use it.

unnecessary rudeness aside, i rarely *if ever* actually take this line with 9Ts, but would play AK, KK and QQ the same. My reasoning is to take away his implied odds with pocket pairs and induce shoves from AK+/JJ+. We're OOP as well, and to me the most profitable line is simply to hope he has KK or AK and decides to shove. Is this really so bad? As long as our huge raise doesn't telegraph AA, i.e. there's some range of hands other than AA we do this with, we're again giving him the illusion of fold equity. The 9Ts comment was a little trite, I agree, so I guess I deserve some small degree of vilification for it (really?) but surely you see where I'm going with this.

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

sigh, did i really just read another one of these threads?

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

you didn't have the courtesy to reply to my PM so why don't you at least have the courtesy to explain why my reasoning is faulty. All i'm looking to say is that we maximise our EV by hoping he has a big hand where he wants to play a big pot. The other alternative is giving him implied odds where we're OOP. If we make the same raise with other hands why can't we do it with the nuts? I'm not saying this is watertight or anything, I'm just offering an alternative line which could be more profitable than raising to $200 or just calling OOP. At least explain why my line isn't good, please.

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

raise to ~$200, what's so difficult?

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

Reverse implied odds or there wouldn't be an OP.

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea what to do here. It seems like there's no amount I can bet that prevents him from set-mining. What's my goal? 4-bet an amount that induces a re-raise? Call and try to get to showdown cheap OOP unimproved? (bleh!) Bomb huge so he can't set mine, but it's super obvious what I have? Rep a misclick?


[/ QUOTE ]
WOW

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
4bet an amount that both induces 5bet bluffs and doesnt reveal ur hand (raise to 135?). If u think raising bigger gives him the odds anyways and gives away ur hand - seems like betting smaller is the right play. An insta shove could be fun also if u think it could come off as either a misclick or a frustrated play with jacks+ or ak (therefore get looked up by queens, kings and sometimes ak).

[/ QUOTE ]

lol at AK calling this deep

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

I don't wanna be flamed but this is nothing to do with 'reverse' implied odds. What you are saying is like saying we should raise to 20xbb pf to deny our opponents the correct implied odds to set-mine? Which is obviously ridiculous, we win because we make better decsions than our opponents postflop as well as preflop.

If we make it $200 he does NOT have correct odds to set-mine with 55 vs our range (even if it is tight), the pot will be $400 on the flop and stacks are $1100 so we're basically committed on all flops except KQx etc. But this is only really with AA, only part of our range.

Raising to $350 and hoping he shoves AK for 330bb is simply ludicrous, that just doesn't happen.

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

Seriously, $200 is the correct answer here.

$200 &gt; $135 &gt; $350 &gt; fake misclick

Fake misclick is too unbelievable deep-stacked without history of you misclicking a lot.

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

if you think he'll put you on AA/KK/QQ/AK then you should have pretty good fold equity and so you have to 4bet with trash and utilise your tight image until he realises you are not 4betting with QQ+/AK and starts 5betting or calling. then his view of your range has become wider, which is obv a big plus.

sorry if im saying what you already know, but situations like this i used to hate, now i view as the jackpot hands.

edit: not trying to say you dont do this already, or that my thinking is correct, just i wouldn't be concerned about giving him set mining odds, i'd be focusing on making sure i was 4betting enough that when i do pick up AA/KK and am 3bet, my 4bet is not perceived as 'he has AA/KK/QQ/AK' but instead 'ah [censored], is he making a 4bet play on me again or does he have a genuine hand this time'.

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

giggy is a good lag
the right answer is to be looser so this could be a bluff
but i make this 145 all day against giggy

just dont suck post flop and your reverse implied odds shouldnt be that bad...he actually has to hit to win...

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

I'd make it $165 or so, I'd also 4bet bluff with these stacks a good amount as it puts a ton of pressure on people.

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

it completely depends on how this spot fits into your game/his game, and your history with these stacks in this position.

Calling and 4 betting both have merits, but obnoxious 4 bets are just bad FPS imo.

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]

Fake misclick is too unbelievable deep-stacked without history of you misclicking a lot.

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[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Stupid preflop question, 330bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anything around 160 should be fine. He can't really set mine all that profitably even if you stack off every time.

[/ QUOTE ]