6max starting hands (good discussion of PF and post flop play)
 

I am Looking to get a general idea of what people open with if no one has raised at say 25NL with table of 30/10/2.0

Here is a chart I came up with.


http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/7920/6maxnlmu3.jpg

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

these ranges are tight but are mostly internally consistent and are a decent starting point for a novice player.

the big point that needs correcting is that your SB range is wider than your BTN range, that is definitely incorrect.

edit: insert standard caveats about postflop>preflop, hand selection being dynamic etc. this is still a helpful topic for beginning players to get some guidelines.

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

utg/mp: any pp A10s+, AJ+, KQ, JQs+
co: same as utg, 56s+,78
btn: mostly atc depending on blinds and table conditions

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

the problem is though i have to add here that you can´t play after a starting hand range systems as you can in minibet... nl preflop decisions depend on a lot of factors!

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

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btn: mostly atc depending on blinds and table conditions

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lifetime button vpip please. if it is more than 40% i will be suprised.

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these ranges are tight but are mostly internally consistent and are a decent starting point for a novice player.


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Internally consistent? I know the term but I don't know how it applies to this, or even poker outside of game theoretical models of poker. Any clarification?

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

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btn: mostly atc depending on blinds and table conditions

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lifetime button vpip please. if it is more than 40% i will be suprised.

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nah well that´s obv not what i meant or i would be a spewtard... this is just depending on table condition i might open atc as oposed to utg for example

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

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these ranges are tight but are mostly internally consistent and are a decent starting point for a novice player.


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Internally consistent? I know the term but I don't know how it applies to this, or even poker outside of game theoretical models of poker. Any clarification?

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no genius point, i just mean that the whole set of ranges are tight, but make sense (apart from the sb thing) in terms of position and hand values. there aren't many points where he's dropped a hand from the range for no obvious reason.

i think OP should play AJs UTG if he is playing KQs UTG though, and also raise all PPs UTG.

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

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the problem is though i have to add here that you can´t play after a starting hand range systems as you can in minibet... nl preflop decisions depend on a lot of factors!

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QFT

if you want to be a good player don't follow a hand chart!

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

preflop is like a blank canvas of a painting and the cards and actions you choose begin to create the artwork and then by the river you have painted a great portrait of what you want your opponent to see based on all the actions that were taken during the creation of the painting. poker is a group effort at painting a picture for you to use to your advantage. something like that, although I feel I've failed to explain what I really mean.

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

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i think OP should play AJs UTG if he is playing KQs UTG though, and also raise all PPs UTG.

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I agree with this. Although AJ and AT is table dependent for me. They both get played back at by better hands and can be expensive, so I only do this when players are tight and I know that the RR means AQ+, 99+ and I don't end up folding to a worse hand too often.

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

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preflop is like a blank canvas of a painting and the cards and actions you choose begin to create the artwork and then by the river you have painted a great portrait of what you want your opponent to see based on all the actions that were taken during the creation of the painting. poker is a group effort at painting a picture for you to use to your advantage. something like that, although I feel I've failed to explain what I really mean.

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i think i know what you mean but wouldn't that require your opponent to be thinking?

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

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preflop is like a blank canvas of a painting and the cards and actions you choose begin to create the artwork and then by the river you have painted a great portrait of what you want your opponent to see based on all the actions that were taken during the creation of the painting. poker is a group effort at painting a picture for you to use to your advantage. something like that, although I feel I've failed to explain what I really mean.

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i think i know what you mean but wouldn't that require your opponent to be thinking?

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uhm no not necessarily. he meant that you set up your oponent preflop for what is going to happen postflop.
e.g. if you have an opponent who always pushes the flop in 3bet pots you would sure call his 3bet pre and not 4bet.
in your preflop decisions you have to include a play for the rest of the hand

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

too tight in EP/MP and too loose in SB (imo)

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

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... as you can in minibet.

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O RLY?

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

I play atc from SB with one limper. Your UTG is too tight, you need to open up your game and raise good hands like JT more often. I also like limping big pairs from early position to confuse my opponents. I think you should also create a separate chart for minraise ranges as it is an important tool in our arsenal and requires some thought.

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I also like limping big pairs from early position to confuse my opponents.

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what other hands do you limp from ep? cause this isnt exploitable at all

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Ok people suck at 25NL but i still think they take AQo before KQs.

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I play atc from SB with one limper. Your UTG is too tight, you need to open up your game and raise good hands like JT more often. I also like limping big pairs from early position to confuse my opponents. I think you should also create a separate chart for minraise ranges as it is an important tool in our arsenal and requires some thought.

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yea great post. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

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I play atc from SB with one limper. Your UTG is too tight, you need to open up your game and raise good hands like JT more often. I also like limping big pairs from early position to confuse my opponents. I think you should also create a separate chart for minraise ranges as it is an important tool in our arsenal and requires some thought.

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So you want a noob to go straight in and LAG it up .. brilliant !

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

What? PSR rules, PNL ftw [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] All I want it this thread to be locked. I can't imagine someone with pooh bah can have a meaningful discussion about 6max preflop ranges in NL in vacuum.

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


Yeah, where's Ama, when you need him

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

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All I want it this thread to be locked. I can't imagine someone with pooh bah can have a meaningful discussion about 6max preflop ranges in NL in vacuum.

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look if you are starting poker cold how would you know whether or not to play 65s or A5s UTG. I mean it looks pretty right?

obviously I don't play according to some hand range chart but I am assuming OP is fairly new to the game and is trying to get some understanding of reasonable hands to play in different positions. That is a completely legit question and instead of giving some meaningless 'ugh don't use hand charts' i tried to give a helpful response.

This is a not a thread where giving some cocky levelling response is appropriate (especially a fairly subtle one).

Also note OP did not give a vacuum: he specified some basic reads. not the whole story, but it is ridiculous to suggest that you can't give a useful response to OP's question.

/rant

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

He can get all the info he needs from supersystem , harrignton, forum stickies etc. But its not even the point boz.

Thing is you can't teach people what to do in poker. You can, but its beyond stupid.

To get results you should explain how to think. Thought process is paramount. Hand range is like the fundamental primitive in it. This is where the thinking starts.

Putting a set of prescribed graphs, charts and other rubbish is just setting someone on a wrong foot. Just like building your game around pt stats. Ever noticed that two most common "general area" question from <50 posts are "check my stats" and "what are you hand ranges?" (aside from "can I fold KK" and "how is my bluff?" of course [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

Well then Corsakh ... explain, how do you go about constructing your pf ranges ?

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

Come on Corsakh, it's complete [censored] that you don't use a set of prescribed rules. This chart may be a mental one and not a physical one, but you definitely have one. Even though your starting range of hands depends on a few factors, a lot of it is quite standard. Most people don't play 11/9 on one table and 25/23 on another. So definitely a huge part part of your preflop game is standardized. In time every good player will learn that this isn't optimal, but that doesn't mean it isn't a good starting point.

I know that at least half my opponents would be playing way better if they used such a chart.

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

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Most people don't play 11/9 on one table and 25/23 on another.



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Some do ... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


Trouble is that all can agree that poker depends, but few actually go into detail.

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

there's a lot of detail to go into gelford! I'll give you a nice scenario though. let's say you have a table with 2 fishies on your right and 3 of the nitiest nits on your left. You have the btn every hand eccept when you're in the blinds, so start opening ridiculous amounts



corsakh, limping big pairs in EP? pleeeaase don't. i don't think min-raising is a particularly important tool although i'd like to hear an argument o/w. i sometimes mr otb if the blinds are really nitty and give up too much.

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

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there's a lot of detail to go into gelford!

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I know, there is a reason that I aint giving any specific advice myself either, would quickly turn into a pooh-bah style post without covering all anyway [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

Preflop 6max hand charts are not worth the pixels they are written with for NL poker. Almost all preflop play can be justified given certain conditions - and even if your preflop game is horribly horribly -EV (say we open raise every other hand for example) you can STILL make a semi reasonable ptbb/100 by goot postflop play.

Yes thats stretching it a bit - BUT the key thing to note is that postflop play is >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>> than preflop play.

Corsakh is spot on in that new players need to learn WHY to think a certain way - it's the thinking that we are building on playing microlimits.

Hell at the same table vs the same villains on subsequent orbits I could be dealt AA in MP AK in CO KK OTB and raise all of them - the following orbit I get AJs in the CO and raise that and then OTB it's folded to me and I pickup A5o - under normal circumstances A5o is a raise here - BUT we have just hit a hot run of cards and even the donkiest of donks will notice that we are now "lagging it up" so I tend to fold and tighten up after a hot run (that doesn't get to SD) for a little while cos it stands to reason I will get called more often - if you are following a chart you raise blindly away... You can no doubt cite plenty of other examples where deviating from a chart is good.

I don't think this helps noob players - I think this will confuse them and get them thinking about things the wrong way - NL poker has a hell of a lot more to do imo with implied odds and position than preflop hand value rankings.

My lifetime button vpip is ~35% my lifetime UTG vpip is ~10% and the later my position the more hands I play.

A new player I think would benefit more from - "play only the very best hands from UTG (about the top 10%) and in the blinds and when you play the hand raise or fold. The only exception being pp's 22 - 99 and if the pot has been opened it's fine to call a preflop raise with your pp provided that the raiser and you both have 12-15x at least still remaining stacks after the call) - fold EVERYTHING ELSE.

From MP if your hand is good enough you think to make a raise with (either the pot is unopened so you can raise say the top 20ish% - or you have a really top hand and can reraise) else fold (still with that pp exception)

From CO add in all the sc's 54+ and Axs and on the button add in the offsuit connectors and suited 1gappers. 53+ and Kxs.

Understand that POSITION is waaaaaaaaaaaay more important than you think it is. That drawing hands are ONLY good to play from LP most of the time. That broadway cards like AT KJ KT QJ QT JT are pretty worthless vs reasonable players and are only good for making straights with most of the time.

When you open a pot make it 4BB+1BB per limper and fold all but your very best hands to a reraise preflop."

This is far from optimal and takes no account of the type of players you play against etc etc etc - but it's a better starting point I think that a hand chart that teaches you indirectly to think about the hand ranking values - when hand values preflop are one of the least important things to learn with NL poker.

Once you have a few hands under your belt and are no longer a total noob - the next thing to do I think is to learn WHY we raise these hands from x position - and then leave all the preflop stuff behind and start looking at postflop play.

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

This thread has long been hijacked and I participated in the hijacking, so ...... but getting back on track.


.....


Blah blah blah pf


......


Truth of the matter is this. Pf play is grounded in postflop conditions .. these dertermine your pf play. This include villians tendencies, but also how you balance your own game.


Noobs do not have postflop skills, therefore they can not be flexible pf, they simply have no grasp of what they are doing.

That is why poker learning starts with a pf chart and a very basic postflop system.

Once you start to understand that basic system, you can then expand ... and thus as a consequece of this revide your pf 'chart'.

With time this chart in a sense ceases to exist, and you just play poker.

Also note that game condition are NOT necesarrily what dertermine your vpip. You can play NAG or LAG at a given table and show a profit, but postflop play changes radically depending on your pf handselection.




True there is no such thing as a pf starting hands chart that is rigid and the best hands always (not even in minbet poker) ...

But in all honesty OP is a noob and unlike so many others actually provides reads.

NOOBS NEED CHARTS OR ELSE THEY WILL BE LOST AND MOST LIKELY SPEWING!!


(BTW IMO his 'chart' is actually too loose, but that is a different matter altogether. )

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

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btn: mostly atc depending on blinds and table conditions

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ATC means what???

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

I agree with Bozzer et al. Before you can get to the whys you have to figure out what it is you are doing specifically. Do I raise KQo UTG generally? Summarizing like this can be helpful to oneself and should be a good aid to OP to think further.

Generally, I think most people here raise 22+ UTG and raise less from the blinds. If button limps I raise my BB with a tighter range than UTG, without a read. But my UTG range is way wider than yours of course.

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

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Well then Corsakh ... explain, how do you go about constructing your pf ranges ?

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That would be a freaking lengthy post worth of writing a book to be honest [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I can only say there were cases I was glad raising 56s UTG. There were cases I was folding AT in LP. There were cases I was limping AJ UTG. How does someoen propose to put this into a chart? My usual stats distribution on 4 tables looks something like

45/35
10/6
20/10
25/15

The only real advice I can give is read the forum and play the hands.

ps

I am not sure but why matrix says preflop is <<<< than postflop. In my opinion its exactly the opposite.

Preflop:

- you are given an opportunity to make a mistake much more often. You play 4 times more hands preflop than you do post.

- poker is designed this way that mistakes on early streets though are less in value in the beginning, cost you a lot more on later streets. Say your calling a pot on the river. You can be wrong 66% and still be even. Your calling preflop 3BB with a dominated hand - say good bye to half your stack for a 3BB mistake.

- preflop play sets your image, your initiative, control and pace of the game. Turning a 50% to see flop with 10BB average pot into a 40% to see flop with 50BB average pot is probably one of the most important aspects of the game [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Not very important perhaps for nutpedalling, but pretty much bread and watter of anyone playing above 14/10.

Many other things to consider, but I think preflop is absolutely an art.

Thing is, at micros it does not matter. You can still be a total drooler and win money cos your surrounded by bigger droolers.

Its just the fact there its much easier to play with two cards preflop than it is with 5 on the flop, so most people grasp the very basics of preflop play faster than postflop hence our edge is a bit bigger post and we make more money postflop. Thats where I believe matrix is coming from. But not to say that post >>>> pre [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I am not sure but why matrix says preflop is <<<< than postflop. In my opinion its exactly the opposite.

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turn decision > river decision > flop decision > pf decision imo

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

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btn: mostly atc depending on blinds and table conditions

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ATC means what???

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ATC = Any Two Cards. There is a post by Ajmargarine in the SSNL sticky which gives a guide to the lingo used in these here forums - uNL AND SSNL stickies ought to be required reading. And for the newer posters a yearish ago uNL didn't exist and SSNL coverd the micro tables as well so there is a lot of relevant content in there.

Corsakh:

I say postflop is >>>>>>>> than preflop cos you can win monies with a BAD preflop strat - if you have a good postflop strat. It doesn't work the other way around.

(Yes I realise you CAN win monies at microstakes with good pre and bad post - but ONLY at microstakes cos of the huge amount of droolers. Our goal ought to be to learn a solid game and move up to higher limits - you can't do that without a half decent postflop game)

Postflop bets are orders of magnitude larger than preflop bets - so mistakes made post are more costly overall. Most of the monies at a poker table are won or lost postflop - not preflop.

Yes preflop and postflop are linked and good preflop play tends to lead on to better postflop play - but noobs (and I did this when I was a noob) tend to spend way too long thinking about preflop when they ought to think more about postflop imo. Preflop is the springboard and is much simpler than post.

If you are calling 3BB preflop with a dominated hand - in order to say bye bye to half your stack you are also making postflop mistakes I think - so blaming that on just the smallish preflop mistake is misleading. Yes the preflop mistake makes the rest of the hand tougher to play - so it creates harder postflop decision which we will often get wrong, and by definition a solid preflop strat makes postflop easier.

Yes we make preflop decisions with much greater frequency - but they are SIMPLE decisions compared to those postflop. Therefore we get them right (or ought to) much more often than postflop decisions.

for all these reasons imo postflop is much more important to learn and learn well than preflop tho obv you do need to be good at both to be a solid winning player.

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

Preflop: Play hands from starting hand chart
Flop: ??
Turn: ??
River: ??
Showdown: Profit!!

Re: 6max starting hands chart
 

Im gonna re-open this cause i think there is some good conversation here. Im also gonna get some pokey in here(hopefully).