FOS line from TAG
 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Party Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG ($203)
MP ($223.25)
Hero ($227.75)
SB ($112.65)
BB ($311.03)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $8</font>, Hero calls $8, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($19) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($19) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $16</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $64</font>, Hero calls $48.

River: ($147) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP calls $223.25 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $370.25
<font color="#009B00">Main Pot: $370.25, returned to MP.</font>

i think i have been pretty active at the table so i decided to flat call w KQs, rather than 3bet.

villain is a pretty standard TAG. 20/14 over 2000 hands and isn't the most agressive. most interestingly he only Cbets 45% of the time. his turn checkraise didn't really make any sense at the time, so i called, thinking he might give up on the river if it was a bluff. then he shoves...

i fold w/o really thinking carefully enough about it, guessing he must have me beat somehow. thing is, i have no idea what he has, his line just makes no sense. he would bet the turn if he had a big hand right?

this should be a call right?
what is his range?
ratio of valuebet/bluff on the river shove?

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

Normally I would fold this without too much consideration just like yourself.

I think your right though. This could very easily be a call since no hands make any sense.

AQ would have to lead out on turn and so should KT.

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

His line doesn't make any sense. I usually call in these spots.

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
he only Cbets 45% of the time, and isn't the most aggressive

[/ QUOTE ]

So... why do you think you are ahead? Suddenly he wakes up with air on a broadway board when he can be virtually certain you have a piece?

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

call

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
call

[/ QUOTE ]

Insightful!

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

well my only reason is that he just looks FOS. I'm confused -&gt; money goes in.

KT would bet the flop, if hes dumb enough to slow play on this board he's dumb enough to make a retarded bluff.

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

I'd bet the flop.

I would definitely be tempted to look him up here. I just don't see many of the [censored] he's representing not c-betting.

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

Is this hh real?

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

I really don't agree with calling here. He has already shown you that he doesn't cbet as much as normal. Why is it not possible that he checked a hand like KT on the flop since you had position and cold called his raise preflop? Also, how is it not possible that he might have flopped a set of jacks and just wanted to get creative with it (again, since you had position on him). While I'm not advocating his line on this play, I just don't think that these 2 hands are out of the question.

I think the fact that you cold called, in position, his PF raise made him play the hand a bit funky here, but I just don't see a TAG making a play like this with pure air.

Interesting hand though for sure...

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet the flop.

I would definitely be tempted to look him up here. I just don't see many of the [censored] he's representing not c-betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

i definitely think that betting the flop is a mistake against someone who Cbet 45%. it is highly likely that he checks good hands as well as whiffed ones.

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

the flop check by him was not unexpected, but him not betting the turn is weird, i mean, surely he would bet out on the turn once i checked behind if he had a big hand

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is this hh real?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

I call I guess. And shake my head whatever happens.

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why is it not possible that he checked a hand like KT on the flop since you had position and cold called his raise preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

it's very possible on the flop, but not so much on the turn. It's his turn check that makes this look like bluff.

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

I must say though. I really have no experience playing against a 20/14 TAG that c-bets 45%. What the [censored] is up with that. Weirdo.

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

pf is good. Bet the flop. As played, fold the turn.

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

His (villains) turn check is good against a straightforward opponent, u wouldve bet any draw on the flop and a pair of jacks, if u have a small pair u prob arent gonna call but if the queen hit u in some way (pairing, draws etc.)- ur betting it, and if u have air and ur faced with two checks - u might take a stab. His big bets also work well to pretend hes FOS. Makes this a fold IMO. I think u shouldve bet flop btw - its not like u care too much about being blown off a gutter.

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
His (villains) turn check is good against a straightforward opponent, u wouldve bet any draw on the flop and a pair of jacks, if u have a small pair u prob arent gonna call but if the queen hit u in some way (pairing, draws etc.)- ur betting it, and if u have air and ur faced with two checks - u might take a stab. His big bets also work well to pretend hes FOS. Makes this a fold IMO. I think u shouldve bet flop btw - its not like u care too much about being blown off a gutter.

[/ QUOTE ]

a gutter + 2 overs + i may already have the best hand + he only Cbets 45% + i'm pretty aggro postflop so he probably wouldn't give a flop bet any respect (or a turn bet, lol)

that's why i didn't bet the flop

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

Do you have any idea how aggro your turn stats look to him?
How do you think he'd play AcTc what about AcQc or QcTc those are the only hands that somehow make sense.

I usually tend to give turnraises+rivershoves respect but his 45% cbet might mean he has some supersecret turn strategy worked out :P

I think this line makes no real sense unless he has some sick read on your turn play.

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet the flop.

I would definitely be tempted to look him up here. I just don't see many of the [censored] he's representing not c-betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

i definitely think that betting the flop is a mistake against someone who Cbet 45%. it is highly likely that he checks good hands as well as whiffed ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

whoa, I totally missed that. That's fairly critical and leans me towards an instamuck.

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

I fold this, same as you. In my gut it screams some wierd slow play.

However, to be frank, I'm wondering if he didn't have jacks, think you pulled a bluff on the turn and when you just call he thinks he is ahead?

Honestly I have no idea what's going on in this hand, 50/50 if I call or not, it would depend on what I type of player he perceives me as. I think I lay it down and pick a better time to call.

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

I kinda hate calling this turn, is this a standard call for you guys?

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

the converter's way off on the size of his river shove right?

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

1.river shove is only a few $$ bigger than pot.

2. i called the turn cos i didn't think he had the guts to shove the river as a bluff (he aint a great player imo)

3. my turn aggression isn't that high. 3 or so

Re: FOS line from TAG
 

how can u call a dude a TAG if he cbets 45%...