100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

Never made a post here so i guess we will c how this goes...


No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
SB: $159.73
Hero: $199.50

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $4</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $16</font>, SB calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($32, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $23</font>, SB calls.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($78, 2 players)
Hero ???? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]





Reads... the table just broke and so no real meta game goin. first time i had 3 bet him since the 10 hands of HU had started. he hadnt dont n e thing good or bad since he had been at the table. i have a laggy image from the 6 handed as well as heads up. im pretty sure i have raised every btn while heads up and then cbet every flop. but nothing specific. he had been playin like 40 14 2 while 6 handed was goin and looked like a normal goof ball but nothing to make him overly awfull or n e thing.

so wut do u do here and why. flop seems stnd to me and the turn is rough imo.

discuss...

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

I c/c here most of the time, but I suck. Don't listen to me. I'm 90% sure bet/fold is correct here, but don't bet like a girl so that you induce an all-in. If he has you bet he will 100% move in here and you can safetly fold

Would be cool with some good players respond to this one, I for one hate these spots. Creedo where are you??

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

When I think about it, vs an aggro crai is pretty nice. I mean he never has a K since there are 2 of the out there and a set raises the flop. Wow Im rock solid with this hand reading stuff =)

Edit: Im also drunk at work

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

check call turn and see how the river goes.

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

[ QUOTE ]
check call turn and see how the river goes.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how I play it also, but I only like ut vs unpreditable players. Bet/fold is great vs a guy who will always push when U are beat

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

You can make arguments for checking or betting. We had a similar hand to this a while ago and the votes were pretty much divided .

I like checking because the k is a perfect scare card for you and you'll induce some bluffs if your opponent has second pair or even bottom pair . Betting out will probably induce bottom pair to fold and most ace-high hands .

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

I also like checking over betting. You're both reasonably deep, so you'd be faced with a tough decision if you bet on the turn and he pushes over the top.

If he also checks behind on the turn, you can bet/fold on the river for value out of hands like A9 or TT-JJ.

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

[ QUOTE ]
You can make arguments for checking or betting. We had a similar hand to this a while ago and the votes were pretty much divided .

I like checking because the k is a perfect scare card for you and you'll induce some bluffs if your opponent has second pair or even bottom pair . Betting out will probably induce bottom pair to fold and most ace-high hands .

[/ QUOTE ]r we check calling or crai?? cuz i thought the same thing as far as checking the turn was probably best but i had no idea wut to do after that which led me to think maybe checking wasnt even best.


so heres the next action... wut do u think is best from here...???

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
SB: $159.73
Hero: $199.50

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $4</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $16</font>, SB calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($32, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $23</font>, SB calls.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($78, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">SB bets $40</font>, Hero ????

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

I think a check/call is best on the turn, especially given his bet sizing on the turn. As someone mentioned earlier, this is the perfect turn card to float, which may have been his plan all along given your aggressive image.

If he fires again on the river, you seriously have to consider folding because you've pretty much narrowed your range down to where it is very unlikely you have the K but are still willing to call down till the end. This puts you at hands like TT-JJ, QQ, AA, AsQs, AcQc, maybe even a hand like A9. You should lean toward folding on the river because if he fires out again knowing that you will probably call, his range is pretty much entirely ahead of you.

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

check/call turn, check/fold river if spade comes, otherwise check and consider whether to call, a.k.a. "play poker"

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

Bet turn. You are losing so much value by not betting because all draws check behind and you are good here so much more often than not. You also are missing value from any 9 by not betting.

Against most people I play I bet this turn looking to get it in, but you'll have to judge for yourself if your opponent fits into that category. The only possible K he can have here is a weak one.

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bet turn. You are losing so much value by not betting because all draws check behind and you are good here so much more often than not. You also are missing value from any 9 by not betting.

Against most people I play I bet this turn looking to get it in, but you'll have to judge for yourself if your opponent fits into that category. The only possible K he can have here is a weak one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is the only possible K he could have a weak one? I was thinking just the opposite because he called the preflop 3-bet, meaning if he has a K it's either AK or KJ, with KQ being unlikely because we have two of the Queens.

Also, I think betting the turn makes a lot more sense if the second card absent the two kings is a T or a J instead of a 9. In that instance, there are a lot more hands in his 3betting range that would have hit middle pair.

As it stands though, what 9s could he have? A9 is definitely a possibility, but even with giving him a wider calling range both K9 and Q9 aren't very likely because of the two Ks on the board and the two Qs in our hand. J9s could be in his calling range, but beyond that I don't think we're missing out on much value by checking the turn. If the opponent checks behind on the turn, we're still going to get a decent amount of value out of 9s and middle pairs with our river value bet.

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet turn. You are losing so much value by not betting because all draws check behind and you are good here so much more often than not. You also are missing value from any 9 by not betting.

Against most people I play I bet this turn looking to get it in, but you'll have to judge for yourself if your opponent fits into that category. The only possible K he can have here is a weak one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is the only possible K he could have a weak one? I was thinking just the opposite because he called the preflop 3-bet, meaning if he has a K it's either AK or KJ, with KQ being unlikely because we have two of the Queens.

Also, I think betting the turn makes a lot more sense if the second card absent the two kings is a T or a J instead of a 9. In that instance, there are a lot more hands in his 3betting range that would have hit middle pair.

As it stands though, what 9s could he have? A9 is definitely a possibility, but even with giving him a wider calling range both K9 and Q9 aren't very likely because of the two Ks on the board and the two Qs in our hand. J9s could be in his calling range, but beyond that I don't think we're missing out on much value by checking the turn. If the opponent checks behind on the turn, we're still going to get a decent amount of value out of 9s and middle pairs with our river value bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's basically like this, any hand that beats you would have shipped it in on the flop since that's one of the drawiest possible and they have no motivation to flat call. Not only that but AK will generally push pre.

His range of hands that calls a turn (and possibly river bet) is pretty big, A9, TT, JJ and any one of the hojillion draws that are present.

The bottom line is that you are ahead here so much more often than not and need to get value. At times I just stop thinking about the retarded hands villains are floating my flop bets with, and start thinking about the fact that my hand is good here 90%+ of the time.

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

Master... so when u bet the turn is the intention to bet and call a shove or bet fold. and how much r u looking to bet on the turn??

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

[ QUOTE ]
Master... so when u bet the turn is the intention to bet and call a shove or bet fold. and how much r u looking to bet on the turn??

[/ QUOTE ]

All of those questions are read dependent. I'm just saying that 60%+ of opponents I play I'm looking to bet ($59 is good) and call a shove.

Poker is a game of empathy, you are villain, you have a certain calling range here and a flop bet calling range, what's really in it that beats QQ here? There really aren't that many kings.

Against the nittier variety, or donks who can have some really weak kings in their 3bet calling range, I'm folding to a shove but still absolutely hate checking the turn due to loss of value. Most really bad players will have let you know earlier in the match what their CR all-in range is on that turn. I do so it quite a bit where dude has K8 here, peels flop due to kicker but then wakes up and shoves on a king turn. If that's the case than this is easy easy poker (bet/fold). I think you are missing value from so many hands, and are going to have to fold to PSBs on so many rivers to do anything else but bet turn.

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

I bet and get it in here against most HU villains. But this is a 6max table that broke down so villain might be a nit who isn't an experienced HU player plus you are both deepstacked and even in regular HU play (not 6max that broke down), there are players who will tighten up significantly when that deep. If this is one of those villains, you should go b/f because you know he isn't doing it with a worst card.

Just bet call without more reads.

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

this is exactly my thinking. how is it that so many people can have such different ideas about this spot. most are saying the opposite of get it all in and thinking too defensively.

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is exactly my thinking. how is it that so many people can have such different ideas about this spot. most are saying the opposite of get it all in and thinking too defensively.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because there is no real answer. It is all player dependent and a player like Vinetou who is very aggro gets his money in good here more than a tight preditable player etc

After thinking about this hand more with the provided info, Im in the betting camp. Maninly because the board contains alot of draws. On a dry board Im more likely to check to induce a bluff from a float/value bet from a one pair hand

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is exactly my thinking. how is it that so many people can have such different ideas about this spot. most are saying the opposite of get it all in and thinking too defensively.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with LJ in that we're good here the vast majority of the time, but the question is one of walking the fine line between getting the most value out of hands like TT-JJ and A9 (which I think are pretty much the only hands in villain's range where he calls 3 streets of value bets) versus playing it somewhat more cautiously and checking the turn to avoid getting it all in when absolutely crushed.

Like I said before, I like leading on the turn more if the second card wasn't a 9 where the only hand in a standard villain's calling range would be A9 (and that's a pretty generous calling range). I guess my hesitation with leading the turn is how to respond to a push, because folding seems weak but calling also seems bad because his range usually crushes us.

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

Bet&gt;c/f&gt;c/c

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this is exactly my thinking. how is it that so many people can have such different ideas about this spot. most are saying the opposite of get it all in and thinking too defensively.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with LJ in that we're good here the vast majority of the time, but the question is one of walking the fine line between getting the most value out of hands like TT-JJ and A9 (which I think are pretty much the only hands in villain's range where he calls 3 streets of value bets) versus playing it somewhat more cautiously and checking the turn to avoid getting it all in when absolutely crushed.

Like I said before, I like leading on the turn more if the second card wasn't a 9 where the only hand in a standard villain's calling range would be A9 (and that's a pretty generous calling range). I guess my hesitation with leading the turn is how to respond to a push, because folding seems weak but calling also seems bad because his range usually crushes us.

[/ QUOTE ]

While our range that villain has that gets us 3 streets of value (A9, TT-JJ, and other crap) there are a TON of hands we can get value with on the turn. K97 with 2 to a flush and the turn bringing a double suited board makes for a hojillion draws.

Fwiw, I'm c/calling most rivers.

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this is exactly my thinking. how is it that so many people can have such different ideas about this spot. most are saying the opposite of get it all in and thinking too defensively.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with LJ in that we're good here the vast majority of the time, but the question is one of walking the fine line between getting the most value out of hands like TT-JJ and A9 (which I think are pretty much the only hands in villain's range where he calls 3 streets of value bets) versus playing it somewhat more cautiously and checking the turn to avoid getting it all in when absolutely crushed.

Like I said before, I like leading on the turn more if the second card wasn't a 9 where the only hand in a standard villain's calling range would be A9 (and that's a pretty generous calling range). I guess my hesitation with leading the turn is how to respond to a push, because folding seems weak but calling also seems bad because his range usually crushes us.

[/ QUOTE ]

While our range that villain has that gets us 3 streets of value (A9, TT-JJ, and other crap) there are a TON of hands we can get value with on the turn. K97 with 2 to a flush and the turn bringing a double suited board makes for a hojillion draws.

Fwiw, I'm c/calling most rivers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, that makes a lot of sense. It does seem like betting the turn and checking the river is a better line than the converse. Are you calling a push on the turn LJ?

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

Like I said, that's totally read dependent. I'm a pretty aggressive player, and villain's line makes little sense for having any sort of reasonable K (I'm much more afraid of something like K8 pushing than say KJ/KQ/AK/KT). Against most opponents I will certainly call a push.

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

What makes flop standard? Depending on the level of thinking, checking, betting less or betting more on the flop can all be standard- either with this hand or your entire range.

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

kool... thanks for the replies. some very good stuff here. ill try to post some more in this forum as it seems their r some good posters here.

ill reveal the results tomorow for n e one who is curious

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

with that description ov villain, I think he showed AK or TT,JJ.

Re: 100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH
 

well i went for a turn crai after his bet thinking like most of u all said that i was in fact well ahead of his range and that he could call with a ton. so he snap called with KJ. meh lol