The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

$5-$150 spread-limit. I raise to $15 from EP with KK, only five callers. Flop comes JJ5 rainbow. I continue for $35. All fold to button, a guy far too young to have a hearing impediment, who asks the dealer "How much?" then to me "Why so little?" and after thinking about it, just calls. So I pretty much know he has at least a Jack at that point.

I check the non-king turn. He immediately goes to bet, but only $25 and turns into a swarthy version of Jamie Gold, trying to talk me into calling. I've been running very bad, and it's been making me a little tilty, so I decide I can't give up on my Kings, even though every time he opens his mouth I'm more sure of my read.

River is a non-king blank, I check. He quickly bets $35. I start questioning my read, and tell myself I'm getting great pot odds. He gets impatient and flashes me one card, a five. As soon as I see it I turbo-muck, and he's too proud of his cleverness to muck and tables his pocket fives for the flopped underfull. As I replay the hand I realize that even though I probably had the implied odds for $25 (given I unknowingly had 4 outs) there was a much, much better strategy I could have used.

About twenty hands later I get KK UTG. This time I limp, hoping for the ol-limp reraise to keep me from any nasty post flop decisions. No chance this time, as only eight limpers accompany me to the flop. Flop is 669. Checked to me and I make the mistake of betting the pot ($40) (obv. a checkraise is much better). All fold to same guy in LP, who silently calls and we are headsup again.

I think, hey he's keeping his mouth shut this time, I might actually have the best hand. I check the blank turn for pot control. He quickly bets $25 again and as my radar starts pinging starts to talk again, "here kitty, kitty" he says, laughing. So he's at least got a six. This time, I decide to try the other strategy. I remove my chip from my cards and make a show of being about to fold, and tell Senor Gold the most I can call is $10. He immediately pulls back $15 of his bet, and I call.

The table erupts. "Can he do that?" "He can't do that!". They all look to the dealer, who says, "I don't think you can do that". I tell the dealer confidently "We are headsup, we can do what we want, and (waving at the table) it's none of their business". Jesus Gold tells the dealer just to finish dealing the hand, the dealer shrugs and produces a non king completing a flush draw.

I check and ready my cards for a fold. He says "I know you hit your flush" and turns over his 76o. Was my play legal?

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

I would not allow it. But then, I don't deal NL in cardrooms. It seems to open such a can of worms, though, I can't imagine any good coming from it.

In my various home games, sometimes someone will say, "I'll fold to your $20, but call $5 for the rest of the hand." I think this is ridiculous and would never offer it (let alone accept it), and it's somewhat sketchy, but it is a home game after all.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

Many rooms will not allow this.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

No way this would be allowed in 5% of the pokerrooms.

I actually tried it at the casears palace in LV, didnt work [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

Cat, you know as well as I do, guys like this are GREAT for the 5/150 game. Please continue to encourage him! This is the same type of guy I fight to allow to buy-in for a rack of green if he wants to.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

I'm not sure about your play. It depends on exactly how you "readied your cards for a fold." But I definitely would not have allowed him to pull back part of his bet.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cat, you know as well as I do, guys like this are GREAT for the 5/150 game. Please continue to encourage him! This is the same type of guy I fight to allow to buy-in for a rack of green if he wants to.

[/ QUOTE ]

-$6,500 since mid October says that I am good for the game:(

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about your play. It depends on exactly how you "readied your cards for a fold." But I definitely would not have allowed him to pull back part of his bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just removed my chip and held my cards as if I were planning to muck. I made no motion to muck. I await RR's definitive statement, which I hope to vindicate my actions.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

[ QUOTE ]
-$6,500 since mid October says that I am good for the game:(

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
About twenty hands later I get KK UTG. This time I limp, hoping for the ol-limp reraise to keep me from any nasty post flop decisions. No chance this time, as only eight limpers accompany me to the flop. Flop is 669. Checked to me and I make the mistake of betting the pot ($40) (obv. a checkraise is much better).

[/ QUOTE ]

This kind of thinking might lead to it [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. With 8 players in the pot, the idea is to keep the pot small by checking. You can probably call a small bet to hope to get a K for implied odds, but I'd probably dump it otherwise.

But to get back to the main point, no the villain is not allowed to offer you a "discount".

Garland

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about your play. It depends on exactly how you "readied your cards for a fold." But I definitely would not have allowed him to pull back part of his bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just removed my chip and held my cards as if I were planning to muck. I made no motion to muck. I await RR's definitive statement, which I hope to vindicate my actions.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's heads up, the dealer should mind his own business. That is the poker answer; if there is any sort of regulation they might have an issue with it.

edit to add: Given enough time I might be able to list all the floormen that would allow this play.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

I saw exactly this happen at Caesars in LV about WSOP time. 2/5 game, the pot was growing large, it was heads up, and a fellow puts in $300. His opponent says "that's too much" and starts to fold. Guy says "wait--how much would you call" and when he hears "$100" the bettor retracts two stacks. Everybody looks at the dealer, dealer is looking a bit unsure, but there's a suit behind the table watching who has said nothing. So it continues. The great joy of this is the opponent hit his 2-outter on the river and stacked the "clever" fellow for like $800.

As the river betting is happening another suit walks up and looks annoyed. When the hand is over he yells at the table in general telling us, "This will NEVER happen again! Once a bet is out, it stays out. GOT IT?" Other suit looks a little sheepish. But they obviously let it stand--nothing you can reasonably do once the river is underway.

I was a-ok with their transaction. Nobody at the table objected--quite the opposite, we were all pretty amused by it. Seems like at this point it's between two consenting poker players. So I didn't understand SuperSuit's great annoyance at us. If he didn't like it, fine, just tell the other suit and the dealer they shouldn't have let that happen. No need to pop any corks.

Thinking about popping corks, the only time I can recall seeing a floor just TOTALLY go off the deep-end was when he looked up and saw a game of 12 players going on. There had been two tables of 6, but someone miscounted and they'd shouted up and asked if it was ok to combine 5+6 into an 11-person table. He'd agreed. Then they found themselves one chair short and just fixed it by letting someone squeeze in. But the floor's sputtering, screaming speech explained his perplexion: "WHAT THE HELL!!!!! SOMEBODY stand up RIGHT NOW! I don't care who, ONE of you has to get up this instant! I'm NOT KIDDING! GET UP or I'm breaking the whole table in 5 seconds! Do you have ANY idea what would happen to me if Gaming walked in here now? We're licensed for 5 tables of 11! I'll be instantly out of a job if anybody sees this. NOW SOMEBODY GET UP!" Poor guy was turning purple.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

[ QUOTE ]
This time, I decide to try the other strategy. I remove my chip from my cards and make a show of being about to fold, and tell Senor Gold the most I can call is $10. He immediately pulls back $15 of his bet, and I call.

The table erupts. "Can he do that?" "He can't do that!". They all look to the dealer, who says, "I don't think you can do that". I tell the dealer confidently "We are headsup, we can do what we want, and (waving at the table) it's none of their business". Jesus Gold tells the dealer just to finish dealing the hand, the dealer shrugs and produces a non king completing a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

If i was dealing, the bets stays.
If the floor was called it stays.
It is irrelevant that you are heads up, the rules don't change based on the number of players. A bet is a bet, its not a start to a negotiation.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This time, I decide to try the other strategy. I remove my chip from my cards and make a show of being about to fold, and tell Senor Gold the most I can call is $10. He immediately pulls back $15 of his bet, and I call.

The table erupts. "Can he do that?" "He can't do that!". They all look to the dealer, who says, "I don't think you can do that". I tell the dealer confidently "We are headsup, we can do what we want, and (waving at the table) it's none of their business". Jesus Gold tells the dealer just to finish dealing the hand, the dealer shrugs and produces a non king completing a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

If i was dealing, the bets stays.
If the floor was called it stays.
It is irrelevant that you are heads up, the rules don't change based on the number of players. A bet is a bet, its not a start to a negotiation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume from your reply that you are a dealer. I won't ask where you deal because it is bad manners to out a dealer in this forum but I would like to know what market you are in.

It sounds like a relatively new market or somewhere that has restrictive laws because places that are serious about poker, usually let heads up players do whatever they want. This refers to higher limit games and usually doesn't apply to $2-4 or 3-6 limit holdem games.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

[ QUOTE ]

-$6,500 since mid October says that I am good for the game:(

[/ QUOTE ]

Running bad tends to lead to playing badly, chin up bro!

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

Some people need to get a grip. In the OP's story, the entire transaction was done in <15 seconds, and we're talking about $5 in a game that features $150 bets.

Why can't people think? When that urge to cry out about a possible infraction of a technicality overcomes them, why can't they take a second before speaking and think, "Geez, it's five bucks, and it's none of my business--why should I care?"

Unrelated story to illustrate my point: Room I work in is paying a $100 bonus to any player who makes quads, as long as he uses both his hole cards. Player turns up K5 on a 555K2 board. Instead of pushing the pot, I stop everything to call the floorman over confirm the bonus hand. Another player not involved in the pot decides he wants to argue about it:

JACKASS: That's not a bonus hand! The rules say that you need a pocket pair in the hole!

ME: No sir, that's not correct. Both cards must play, but a pocket pair is not necessary.

JACKASS: You're wrong!

ME: (shrug. I'm not going to repeat myself. He heard me clearly. I'm ignoring Jackass)

JACKASS: (gets up to go check the rules--can you imagine that? Returns, rules in hand) You're right, both cards must play. But his kicker doesn't play!

ME: (checks the board again) Sure it does.

JACKASS: No it doesn't!

ME: (lower my voice to counter Jackass' frenzied emotional voice) What do you care whether or not he gets paid a bonus?

JACKASS: (blinks hard. Instantly realizes that he has no standing in this. Leans back in his chair and sits out the rest of the transaction while Quad Boy gets paid his bonus.)

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

[ QUOTE ]
Some people need to get a grip. In the OP's story, the entire transaction was done in <15 seconds, and we're talking about $5 in a game that features $150 bets.

Why can't people think? When that urge to cry out about a possible infraction of a technicality overcomes them, why can't they take a second before speaking and think, "Geez, it's five bucks, and it's none of my business--why should I care?"


[/ QUOTE ]

...it was a $15 difference. The original bet was $25 , $15 was removed after the OP said " i can only call $10".
Does that change your stance?

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This time, I decide to try the other strategy. I remove my chip from my cards and make a show of being about to fold, and tell Senor Gold the most I can call is $10. He immediately pulls back $15 of his bet, and I call.

The table erupts. "Can he do that?" "He can't do that!". They all look to the dealer, who says, "I don't think you can do that". I tell the dealer confidently "We are headsup, we can do what we want, and (waving at the table) it's none of their business". Jesus Gold tells the dealer just to finish dealing the hand, the dealer shrugs and produces a non king completing a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

If i was dealing, the bets stays.
If the floor was called it stays.
It is irrelevant that you are heads up, the rules don't change based on the number of players. A bet is a bet, its not a start to a negotiation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anywhere I've played, when heads up at any limit player can offer action, I.e. offer to go allin, if the opponent agrees. Is this not true at your room and if it is how does it differ?

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This time, I decide to try the other strategy. I remove my chip from my cards and make a show of being about to fold, and tell Senor Gold the most I can call is $10. He immediately pulls back $15 of his bet, and I call.

The table erupts. "Can he do that?" "He can't do that!". They all look to the dealer, who says, "I don't think you can do that". I tell the dealer confidently "We are headsup, we can do what we want, and (waving at the table) it's none of their business". Jesus Gold tells the dealer just to finish dealing the hand, the dealer shrugs and produces a non king completing a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

If i was dealing, the bets stays.
If the floor was called it stays.
It is irrelevant that you are heads up, the rules don't change based on the number of players. A bet is a bet, its not a start to a negotiation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume from your reply that you are a dealer. I won't ask where you deal because it is bad manners to out a dealer in this forum but I would like to know what market you are in.

It sounds like a relatively new market or somewhere that has restrictive laws because places that are serious about poker, usually let heads up players do whatever they want. This refers to higher limit games and usually doesn't apply to $2-4 or 3-6 limit holdem games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Arizona.
That fact that i deal is not a secret.
You are correct in that there are restrictions on what can and cant be done in this market. Those restrictions are (for the most part) generally applied to ALL games, and are not limit specific. To this i would suggest that knowing the rules within your "market"( as a player) is paramount , not what happens elsewhere. Just because it is different does not make it incorrect.

You state that places that are "serious about poker" allow "high limit" to "do whatever they want" when heads up.
Define high limit as something other that "$2-4 or 3-6"
What about a fixed limit game say at 75/150...would you allow a river bet in that game to be reduced if the players saw fit?

Would you consider a 5-150 game a "high limit" game (that was the limit of the game in the OP) Remember, this is not a NL game it is in fact a "structured"( $150 cap bet with 3 raises), limit game. Does that change anything?

What is the cutoff limit to allow that players to change the betting?

Why draw the line at high limit? why not let the "low" limit players pull back partial bets? Are they not "serious" enough players?

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This time, I decide to try the other strategy. I remove my chip from my cards and make a show of being about to fold, and tell Senor Gold the most I can call is $10. He immediately pulls back $15 of his bet, and I call.

The table erupts. "Can he do that?" "He can't do that!". They all look to the dealer, who says, "I don't think you can do that". I tell the dealer confidently "We are headsup, we can do what we want, and (waving at the table) it's none of their business". Jesus Gold tells the dealer just to finish dealing the hand, the dealer shrugs and produces a non king completing a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

If i was dealing, the bets stays.
If the floor was called it stays.
It is irrelevant that you are heads up, the rules don't change based on the number of players. A bet is a bet, its not a start to a negotiation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anywhere I've played, when heads up at any limit player can offer action, I.e. offer to go allin, if the opponent agrees. Is this not true at your room and if it is how does it differ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because of the state mandated bet limit.
The maximum you can bet or raise at any given time is $150 maximum. You can go all in(heads-up), but in $150 increments, you cant just push if the players agree. That is just the rule in Arizona.

grow a friggin\' pair already / the al-timate solution
 

Your post is a shining example of why I refuse to watch poker on tv. Since I've been feeling especially flame-tounged today, I think I'll elaborate a bit on my thoughts about this situation ...

Might as well have been 2-4 limit, but you both need a collosal, peacocked stack of lowest denomination chips that were too small for the antes that were three rounds ago. Then we can give out hats and parkas with logos for crappy internet sites that are 90# props. Don't forget the headphones, so no one can hear the dealer (who's not doing his job anyway) or any of the other players either. I realize the two of you were bantering and posturing, but when so much baloney is spewing forth like vomitous chunks from a $6 hotdog you just bought in a tent, might as well throw in the headphones too.

Next, we have the "I'm a high-roller high limit poker player, therefore I can do anything I want whenever the hell I want" attitude. Don't forget to be extra rude to even the friendliest, most competent dealers, that way they'll be sure to tell the rio to screw off next year, leaving you with newbie schmucks who learned all they'll ever know from the wpt and espn, just like the two of you did.

Next, we tackle the dealer who needs to grow a friggin' pair already. The friggin' bet was made, therefore it's a bet. It's not friggin' negotiable, regardless of how much tv the players involved may have watched. I don't care if it's 2-4 or the jamie gold school of lying, cheating, and being an irritating jerk, there are just no negotiations like this that are acceptable, period. This remains true regardless of the quantity of headgear worn by the schmucks involved, all suffering from a combination of entitlement syndrome and ego-itis. I'll say it again because it necessitates repeating, grow a friggin' pair already.

I think I'm going to start promoting a new line of ball-gag headwear designed just for cardrooms, just for situations like this. It will have the registered trademark logo WWACJD? on all the straps and a beanie with a red propellor on top (just for effect). I'll probably make a friggin' bzillion dollas due to extraordinarily high demand, at which point I can make my final post here, which will read ...

Screw you guys, I'm going home.

But until then, I remain ever vigilant, ready to kick 'em all in the nuts first, and sort 'em out later.

Al

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

[ QUOTE ]

Because of the state mandated bet limit.
The maximum you can bet or raise at any given time is $150 maximum. You can go all in(heads-up), but in $150 increments, you cant just push if the players agree. That is just the rule in Arizona.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play at the largest poker room in Arizona. I've been told several times by dealers and the floor that at any time two headsup players can agree to go all-in, to save the time of raising/reraising/ad infinitum.

Re: grow a friggin\' pair already / the al-timate solution
 

[ QUOTE ]


Next, we have the "I'm a high-roller high limit poker player, therefore I can do anything I want whenever the hell I want" attitude. Don't forget to be extra rude to even the friendliest, most competent dealers, that way they'll be sure to tell the rio to screw off next year, leaving you with newbie schmucks who learned all they'll ever know from the wpt and espn, just like the two of you did.
...


But until then, I remain ever vigilant, ready to kick 'em all in the nuts first, and sort 'em out later.

Al

[/ QUOTE ]

I am never rude to dealers, and I don't believe I was in this hand. I may have been rude to the rest of the table, but this was the rare instance where it was warranted. And I'm not delaying the game for a $140 pot, I merely asked a question and if he had not responded affirmatively I would have mucked to keep the game moving.

And several floor people (including RR) have indicated that when you are headsup, limits can be waved with both players consent. I may deserve a kick in the nuts, but then also do the people who told me this.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This time, I decide to try the other strategy. I remove my chip from my cards and make a show of being about to fold, and tell Senor Gold the most I can call is $10. He immediately pulls back $15 of his bet, and I call.

The table erupts. "Can he do that?" "He can't do that!". They all look to the dealer, who says, "I don't think you can do that". I tell the dealer confidently "We are headsup, we can do what we want, and (waving at the table) it's none of their business". Jesus Gold tells the dealer just to finish dealing the hand, the dealer shrugs and produces a non king completing a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

If i was dealing, the bets stays.
If the floor was called it stays.
It is irrelevant that you are heads up, the rules don't change based on the number of players. A bet is a bet, its not a start to a negotiation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume from your reply that you are a dealer. I won't ask where you deal because it is bad manners to out a dealer in this forum but I would like to know what market you are in.

It sounds like a relatively new market or somewhere that has restrictive laws because places that are serious about poker, usually let heads up players do whatever they want. This refers to higher limit games and usually doesn't apply to $2-4 or 3-6 limit holdem games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Arizona.
That fact that i deal is not a secret.
You are correct in that there are restrictions on what can and cant be done in this market. Those restrictions are (for the most part) generally applied to ALL games, and are not limit specific. To this i would suggest that knowing the rules within your "market"( as a player) is paramount , not what happens elsewhere. Just because it is different does not make it incorrect.

You state that places that are "serious about poker" allow "high limit" to "do whatever they want" when heads up.
Define high limit as something other that "$2-4 or 3-6"
What about a fixed limit game say at 75/150...would you allow a river bet in that game to be reduced if the players saw fit?

Would you consider a 5-150 game a "high limit" game (that was the limit of the game in the OP) Remember, this is not a NL game it is in fact a "structured"( $150 cap bet with 3 raises), limit game. Does that change anything?

What is the cutoff limit to allow that players to change the betting?



High Limit is meant to be read as High for the market under discussion. The actual limit isn't important, what is important is how the limit relates to your market and the player's level of experience.



Why draw the line at high limit? why not let the "low" limit players pull back partial bets? Are they not "serious" enough players?

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume that lower limit players are less experienced and may need the protection that strict adhereance to the rules provide. i am pretty much old school on this one and wouldn't have any problem with players at any limit raising the stakes or waving the table stakes rle when headsup but I understand why the floor might not want to let low limit players open up a can of worms because the floor will have to sort out the mess.

Higher limit players should be more experienced and better able to judge the risk.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

I'm really amazed at some of the opinions on this issue.

It seems that many who know quite a bit take that attitude that if 1) it doesn't prejudice other players (i.e. it was head-up at the start of the betting round) and 2) it doesn't slow down the game too much; then players can do what they want.

I must ask though, is there a limit (beyond the above mentioned) to what these two players can do? Could they agree to only have 4 board cards? Could they play the rest of the hand as a modified stud hand? Could they make it hi-lo? Is there any limit as long as they don't slow the game down?

I'm of the opinion that the rules pretty much exist and once people are head-up, they don't magically go away. Perhaps I'm a nit on this though.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

[ QUOTE ]
I must ask though, is there a limit (beyond the above mentioned) to what these two players can do? Could they agree to only have 4 board cards? Could they play the rest of the hand as a modified stud hand? Could they make it hi-lo?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see why not.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I must ask though, is there a limit (beyond the above mentioned) to what these two players can do? Could they agree to only have 4 board cards? Could they play the rest of the hand as a modified stud hand? Could they make it hi-lo?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see why not.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if they bet big to get everyone else out, then agree to take bets back and check it down? Wouldn't be a great collusion strategy, but I feel that it's still collusion (the typical between friends kind).

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to assume you agree to a "regulation" exception. Like in Vegas, I hear the gaming commission is pretty strict on placards and the like.

But putting that aside, what about enforcement? Should the dealer (or the floor) be required to be an enforcing party in this uncharted territory?

Player A and B agree to some wild ass modification in the middle of a hand. As the dealer is doing what he thinks he is supposed to, Player A and B realise they were agreeing to do different things (there was no meeting of the minds). The floor is called. At this point should the floor revert back to the rules of the game? Should he try to discern just what the heck the players were trying to agree to?

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I must ask though, is there a limit (beyond the above mentioned) to what these two players can do? Could they agree to only have 4 board cards? Could they play the rest of the hand as a modified stud hand? Could they make it hi-lo?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see why not.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if they bet big to get everyone else out, then agree to take bets back and check it down? Wouldn't be a great collusion strategy, but I feel that's still collusion (the typical between friends kind).

[/ QUOTE ]

In a case like this I would allow the other players at the table to object on the basis that it is collusive. I think you missed the part (it may not have been stated clearly) that the other players can't be harmed. If this were a game with a max buy-in I would not allow a player to pull money out of his pocket to win money another player has on the table heads up.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

Can someone please show me where it is written that the rules go out the window when a hand is heads-up? I have never heard of that, have never read it anywhere, and the guy can't pull back part of his bet.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

Interestingly enough the people who don't think the players should be allowed to do this only have one reason thats is because its the rule.

The point is it makes no difference to anyone if they agree to do this so other than a nit screaming but its the rule who would be objecting?

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

Here's a not-so-far fetched situation:

Player A, B and C are in a no-limit game and everyone is kind of learning. It's not their 1st session, but everyone has played only a handful of times.

Hand #1. It gets heads up on the river between Player A and Player B. Player A checks, Player B bets $75, Player A says too much. Ok, Player B pulls back $50, Player A calls the $25, and Player B wins. No one says anything at the table, because it's nobody else's business and everyone is happy, right?

Hand #2. It gets 3 ways to the river. Player A checks, Player B checks, Player C bets $75. Player A folds, Player B hems and haws, Player C learning what happened in Hand #1 and wanting a call tries to pull back $50 and now Player A cries foul and Player C is wondering what the heck is going on when he is forced to put his $50 back on the table. As he is explained that heads-up players have special "privileges", he asks to see that in the rules (which obviously isn't there).

Seems to me you're opening up a can of worms flexing the rules leaving interpretation problems for other players (especially newer ones) at the table. If it's going to be acceptable practice to allow players heads up to take partial bets back, I say put it in the rule books.

Garland

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone please show me where it is written that the rules go out the window when a hand is heads-up? I have never heard of that, have never read it anywhere, and the guy can't pull back part of his bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will spell out more clearly what psandman says in reply to this. Who says they can't pull back the bet? There are two people that have standing to say he can't pull back the bet and they are both in favor of it. As I posted earlier in this thread the dealer needs to stay out of it and mind his own business. It is the players' game, if the players want to hear from the dealer they will let him know.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

Doesn't take more than a couple of seconds to say "you can only do that heads up." This does raise a point. Until very recently big bet poker was only played by a handful of people. These people all knew the rules so there was never a problem.

I am not a big fan of rule books because you can never cover every possible situation. Poker was played before there were rule books. As people learned the rules they started to write them down. I first learned this when I was writing a rule book. There was a lack of NL rules, so i talked to someone that had been involved with writing the rules for a casino that had NL. he explained the game hadn't been going long enough to be comfortable writing down the rules, but he played in the game and would help answer any questions I had. I realized then that less is better. Specific situations should be left to those that are trained in determining what is fair and equitable for all involved.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

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Can someone please show me where it is written that the rules go out the window when a hand is heads-up? I have never heard of that, have never read it anywhere, and the guy can't pull back part of his bet.

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I will spell out more clearly what psandman says in reply to this. Who says they can't pull back the bet? There are two people that have standing to say he can't pull back the bet and they are both in favor of it. As I posted earlier in this thread the dealer needs to stay out of it and mind his own business. It is the players' game, if the players want to hear from the dealer they will let him know.

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The rule that says that action in turn is binding.

The rule doesn't state action in turn is binding unless its heads up, then the players can discuss/negotiate the actual bet after the initial bet has been made.

Why should they be able to take back any part of a bet?
The dealer is there to manage the game, and that includes making sure the players adhere to the rules of the game, if you want the dealer to mind his own business, play in a home game.
Casinos are business and are regulated by groups and rules that require them to run fair, impartial and consistent games the rules of which are not dictated by the players.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

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Because of the state mandated bet limit.
The maximum you can bet or raise at any given time is $150 maximum. You can go all in(heads-up), but in $150 increments, you cant just push if the players agree. That is just the rule in Arizona.

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I play at the largest poker room in Arizona. I've been told several times by dealers and the floor that at any time two headsup players can agree to go all-in, to save the time of raising/reraising/ad infinitum.

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I don't know what else to tell you other than you have been grossly misinformed, OR that you have interpreted the fact that there is no cap on the number of raises( when heads-up) as meaning that you can push your stack.

Why don't you do this...skip the floor people and go to any of the shift managers or the room manager.
Ask them... if heads up and both players agree, can they both push their entire stack into the middle of the table as one all-in bet.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

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The dealer is there to manage the game

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No he isn't. He is there to deal the cards. What is he going to do, physically restrain the players from doing what they want with their money? There is always a casino down the street that has dealers that understand they need to stay out of the game.

edit to add: In most higher limit games if a dealer complains "a player told me to STFU" they will generally be told away form the table to talk less (or none at all). There are games where the dealer literally has nothing to say, ever.

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

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Anywhere I've played, when heads up at any limit player can offer action, I.e. offer to go allin, if the opponent agrees. Is this not true at your room and if it is how does it differ?

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About six years ago in 20/40 limit holdem at the Bicycle Casino my hero/gf gets in about four raises on the river with the nuts. Action now on her opponent who pushes his remaining $250 or so allin and asks "Do you want to play for it all? (or something similar). When she pushes her three stacks in he pulls back his nearly three stacks leaving (I think) only the amount of a call. Very experienced floor is called and rules that since it wasn't a legal raise it could be pulled back.

A few days later a shift manager at Hollywood Park said he would have insisted the money stay in (if gf wanted it to).

~ Rick

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

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Anywhere I've played, when heads up at any limit player can offer action, I.e. offer to go allin, if the opponent agrees. Is this not true at your room and if it is how does it differ?

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About six years ago in 20/40 limit holdem at the Bicycle Casino my hero/gf gets in about four raises on the river with the nuts. Action now on her opponent who pushes his remaining $250 or so allin and asks "Do you want to play for it all? (or something similar). When she pushes her three stacks in he pulls back his nearly three stacks leaving (I think) only the amount of a call. Very experienced floor is called and rules that since it wasn't a legal raise it could be pulled back.

A few days later a shift manager at Hollywood Park said he would have insisted the money stay in (if gf wanted it to).

~ Rick

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In general I go with the shift manager at Hollywood Park. I know of a number of venues that I would have to go with the ruling at the Bike because there is a regulation about bet sizes and such.

Re: grow a friggin\' pair already / the al-timate solution
 

Hey man, youz guys know me, it's just a rant, nothing's really personal. It's more of a generalized commentary on the sad state of pooker these days.

Well, we should probably go ahead and kick you in the nuts anyway tho, just to be safe.

Al

Re: The dealer said I couldn\'t do it
 

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I don't know what else to tell you other than you have been grossly misinformed, OR that you have interpreted the fact that there is no cap on the number of raises( when heads-up) as meaning that you can push your stack.

Why don't you do this...skip the floor people and go to any of the shift managers or the room manager.
Ask them... if heads up and both players agree, can they both push their entire stack into the middle of the table as one all-in bet.

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I don't know about casinos outside San Jose, but this specific scenario came up at Garden City or Bay 101...I'm pretty sure it was Garden City.

It was limit game 20/40, and two people wanted to go all-in in one shot rather than raise/re-raise/re-raise you get the idea.

The floor and dealer were very specific that the bets must come out specifically one at a time for the camera's sake because they had to be very careful about the city ordinance regarding the maximum $200 bet rule. If they were ever caught taking that all-in short cut and tapes were reviewed, heads were gonna roll...

Garland