Small pair preflop
 

My question/concern is kind of general but here is an example:

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

In this case SB is 9/3/2.5 over 200+

I know that SSHE says never to fold a hand for one more bet pre-flop but I feel like I should tend towards folding in situations like this. I'd like to know what people think because this happens a lot.

Re: Small pair preflop
 

no dude. you call because you are (many times) going to win a big huge pot those times you flop a set.

Re: Small pair preflop
 

You have it all mixed up; you should be even MORE inclined (not less!) to call now. You have better current and implied odds for flopping your set after the pot gets raised and it's only one more bet for you to call. Before, you were only getting 3.5:1. Now you're getting 9:1.

Re: Small pair preflop
 

Against the opponent you described, this is the clearest example of "set it or forget it" there could possibly be. And as Tyler said above, that's why you're calling the raise preflop--your immediate odds of flopping a set (or open-ended straight draw) plus the implied odds you'll get in the form of bets collected postflop are more than enough to justify the call. It's the same basic principle that you use when calling a raise in the big blind with suited connectors in a multi-way pot, or completing from the small blind with suited anything after several limpers: you know you don't have the best hand now, but since you'll be folding to a flop bet whenever you don't connect &amp; will be extracting many bets postflop when you, you call.

Incidentally, it is very rarely correct to fold to a single raise preflop after putting in one (or more) bets in limit hold'em.

Re: Small pair preflop
 

Yeah thanks for clearing this up guys.

Re: Small pair preflop
 

hmm...

not meaning to be a dick, but what books have you read so far?

Re: Small pair preflop
 

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Incidentally, it is very rarely correct to fold to a single raise preflop after putting in one (or more) bets in limit hold'em.

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I've heard this over and over again. Can somebody provide me an example where it would be correct to fold to a single raise preflop after putting in one bet in limit hold'em? Misclicks and posting do not count!

Re: Small pair preflop
 

Pocket pairs are an implied odds hand. Meaning if you hit it you can expect to collect additional bets from opponents on later streets. So although you may not have the odds to call right at the moment, implied odds will make that call correct. In this situation, the times you flop a set, you can expect to win more than your share of bets from people calling down with 2nd best hands.

Re: Small pair preflop
 

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Can somebody provide me an example where it would be correct to fold to a single raise preflop after putting in one bet in limit hold'em? Misclicks and posting do not count!

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hehe, I was wondering the same. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Small pair preflop
 

This might be an extreme example but if in this hand after SB raises BB UTG and CO all fold then it's only 5:1. Is that too unrealistic?

Re: Small pair preflop
 

I think a call getting 5:1 is just fine. Since we're up against the PFR, we're very likely to make up all the bets and more implied postflop.

Re: Small pair preflop
 

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I've heard this over and over again. Can somebody provide me an example where it would be correct to fold to a single raise preflop after putting in one bet in limit hold'em? Misclicks and posting do not count!

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Most examples involve cases where you made an initial mistake preflop, generally involving making a bad completion from the SB (followed by a BB raise). I.e., 2 limpers &amp; you complete in the SB with Q5o. Rock in the BB raises, limpers call, and while you're getting 7:1, against his raise you are almost always drawing to a two pair or trips. Another (far-fetched) example would be 4 limpers to you in the SB, you complete with 74s, BB raises, and everyone inexplicably folds.

Like I said...very rarely, except perhaps in blind vs. blind situations where you open-complete &amp; get raised by a passive/straightforward BB.

Re: Small pair preflop
 

harv, that second example with 74s is an instacall with all that dead money in the pot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Small pair preflop
 

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harv, that second example with 74s is an instacall with all that dead money in the pot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Yeah, I should've made it two limpers, which basically restates the first example. Or made the BB extremely passive and/or weak. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Small pair preflop
 

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This might be an extreme example but if in this hand after SB raises BB UTG and CO all fold then it's only 5:1. Is that too unrealistic?

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Even then I think it's correct to call. At worst, your equity is 18.5% against a higher PP, and each time you're not facing a higher PP. A lot of the time you're facing two overcards. Against those hands, your equity is slightly over 50%. If you think the raise represents AA-TT , AKs, AKo, and AQs only, you're a 2:1 underdog in the hand.

(AA-TT, 30 combos where your equity is roughly 20% + AKs-AQs, 20 combos where your equity is roughly 50%; .2 + .12=.32).

Of course, it's not as if you're all in; you still have to play the flop, turn, and river. But if we were to assume that you c/c to the showdown, you'd be putting in 2 more SB and 2 BB at the most, and the pot would contain 8 SB + 4 BB for a total of 8 BB, and from the point that the action is on your after the SB's raise, you'd be putting in 3 of them. This is slightly more than your equity, but the extra bets you win when you hit a set and the bets you save when you fold when an A hits the flop should make up for this.

Does this sound reasonable? Or have I [censored] this all up?

Re: Small pair preflop
 

I could imagine limping in UTG with a very speculative hand and being raised by the BB being one of those times, however I've never done it myself.

Re: Small pair preflop
 

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I could imagine limping in UTG with a very speculative hand and being raised by the BB being one of those times, however I've never done it myself.

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Don't throw away position!

Re: Small pair preflop
 

:g:

Absolutely do not fold. You're getting 9:1, and it's 7.5:1 to hit a set. It doesn't matter that SB almost certainly has you beat right now.

Re: Small pair preflop
 

Once you limp in you have to keep going after the raise. On a good day the raiser will hit his ace when you hit your set. Then you stand to make a bit of money.