Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

Live 10/20, second lowest limit at the room.

4 players limp, I complete T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], bb checks.

BB is a relatively new player to the room and seems a little too loose and pays maybe a bit too much post-flop. The CO is fairly aggressive and possibly a losing player, seems a bit loose.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 sb)

I check planning to checkraise, bb bets, everyone folds back to me, and I call with a likely equity edge in order to improve my implied odds. Is that reasonable?

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

No. You pump this flop as hard as you can and trap everybody including the dealer, chip runner, and cocktail girl. How can you not? Your pot equity has to be massive.

BO

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

raise

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

bet the flop.

this flop getting checked around = complete and utter disaster.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

If I knew the BB was going to bet the flop, I would go for the check raise.

Otherwise, as long as your putting in bets it's kind of hard to screw this thing up on the flop.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

well it's heads up now right

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

I would also check the flop. How often is this going to check through? When you bet you run the risk of getting raised and ending up playing your monster draw HU, loosing all your implied odds. The same thing happened here and you didn't even bet which just happens sometimes. It sucks to have a draw like this and barely be a favorite against any Ace.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

Only problem with check raising this is you have no idea who or where a flop bet is coming from. In thoery it would bea good idea if you knew that info. On this flop with an Ace out, a flush draw and a str8 draw I think that if you bet here you are getting a few hanger onners.

As played, I think I just call the BB's flop bet since the pot is so tiny and you have so many outs here. You may be able to trap him for more big bets if you hit one of your cards on the turn.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

raise pf.

bet the flop.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

I am betting the flop. You have an enormous edge. People will call with crap on flops. Let them pay you. I am checking some turns though (very player dependent)

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
raise pf.

bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your goal with the preflop raise?

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

Its perfectly reasonable and I often play big draws passively to preserve my implied odds. I would bet the flop to avoid spots where its checked to the co for example and he bets, but since you didnt I like a c/c.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Its perfectly reasonable and I often play big draws passively to preserve my implied odds. I would bet the flop to avoid spots where its checked to the co for example and he bets, but since you didnt I like a c/c.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not so sure about this. A little more than half the time we get there it's with the flush. The flush card usually kills our action, IMO, unless someone has us beat. I'd rather just stuff the flop and keep the lead.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its perfectly reasonable and I often play big draws passively to preserve my implied odds. I would bet the flop to avoid spots where its checked to the co for example and he bets, but since you didnt I like a c/c.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not so sure about this. A little more than half the time we get there it's with the flush. The flush card usually kills our action, IMO, unless someone has us beat. I'd rather just stuff the flop and keep the lead.

[/ QUOTE ]

If say the 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] rolls off he's probably still bet/calling an A.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its perfectly reasonable and I often play big draws passively to preserve my implied odds. I would bet the flop to avoid spots where its checked to the co for example and he bets, but since you didnt I like a c/c.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not so sure about this. A little more than half the time we get there it's with the flush. The flush card usually kills our action, IMO, unless someone has us beat. I'd rather just stuff the flop and keep the lead.

[/ QUOTE ]

If say the 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] rolls off he's probably still bet/calling an A.

[/ QUOTE ]

ah, maybe where you play live.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

Bet the flop.

Yes the BB can raise and cut down field, or he can call, or he can pass out drunk. You don't know, so lead and work from there.

If it gets raised and ends up HU, put in a 3-bet and hope he caps. Lets you check when you miss the turn, and check-raise when you don't.

These situations don't occur often enough, so spew your heart out on the flop.

Edit: p.s. as you described the table, you should have expected BB to check and CO to bet so you'd be facing the field with a 2 bet by going for a check-raise. Makes a lead bet even more betterer.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise pf.

bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your goal with the preflop raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

to make more money. against all of those limpers who are coming in with all kinds of crap, we have a pretty decent edge 6(or even 5 handed). i would speculate our 9Ts has at around 20-24% equity pf 6 ways.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

I don't raise this PF in the SB. Late Postion yes with this many limpers to me.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

i was going to say the same thing. maybe James missed that.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't raise this PF in the SB. Late Postion yes with this many limpers to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

so as a result of position you forego equity edges?

what is the weakest suited connector you guys raise in this type of game? i'm raising 9Ts-AKs, QTs-AQs, KTs-AJs, and ATs. sometimes 89s and weaker suited aces and pp's if the limpers are really, really bad. this hand has the potential to make huge hands, and big hands deserve big pots. it plays well multiway, even when horribly OOP.

just because we raise pf doesn't mean we need to bet the flop. nor do we necessarily need to continue past the flop if it doesn't reasonably hit us. we do make money from the raise and while position is important, i don't think it's a difference of a full small bet in this situation.

the play does increase variance and if you're not comfortable playing OOP in raised pots, completing is certainly profitable. but i'm of the opinion that in these loose, live games it's even more profitable to raise. it's also possible that i've misinterpreted the game conditions and as such that might alter my pf decision(an EP players LRR alot, it's a tightish game, the limpers are pretty decent, etc.).

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

I was thinking that our position might take too much equity for raising to make sense. I think the worst suited connector I raise here is like QJ. I don't ever raise pp smaller than TT from the SB either.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking that our position might take too much equity for raising to make sense. I think the worst suited connector I raise here is like QJ. I don't ever raise pp smaller than TT from the SB either.

[/ QUOTE ]

awaken your inner LAG and open up your raising range.

with lots of limpers i raise any PP from SB and BB, connectors down to 89s. even if there arent a ton of limpers, not raising JTs or 99 is a leak imo.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking that our position might take too much equity for raising to make sense. I think the worst suited connector I raise here is like QJ. I don't ever raise pp smaller than TT from the SB either.

[/ QUOTE ]

awaken your inner LAG and open up your raising range.

with lots of limpers i raise any PP from SB and BB, connectors down to 89s. even if there arent a ton of limpers, not raising JTs or 99 is a leak imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not a leak. You guys take this preflop pokerstove equity too far and having a decent edge won't make up for the positional disadvantage. Are you telling me that if the are 7 limpers and you look down to 22 in the small blind we are popping it?

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking that our position might take too much equity for raising to make sense. I think the worst suited connector I raise here is like QJ. I don't ever raise pp smaller than TT from the SB either.

[/ QUOTE ]

awaken your inner LAG and open up your raising range.

with lots of limpers i raise any PP from SB and BB, connectors down to 89s. even if there arent a ton of limpers, not raising JTs or 99 is a leak imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not a leak. You guys take this preflop pokerstove equity too far and having a decent edge won't make up for the positional disadvantage. Are you telling me that if the are 7 limpers and you look down to 22 in the small blind we are popping it?

[/ QUOTE ]

hey surfdoc,

what's your sb/bb raising range in a loose, live game with multiple(at least 4) limpers to you?

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

I'd bet this flop [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] You have an open-ended straight flush draw here and five players behind you. I can't think of a situation where betting on the come is more appropriate.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking that our position might take too much equity for raising to make sense. I think the worst suited connector I raise here is like QJ. I don't ever raise pp smaller than TT from the SB either.

[/ QUOTE ]

awaken your inner LAG and open up your raising range.

with lots of limpers i raise any PP from SB and BB, connectors down to 89s. even if there arent a ton of limpers, not raising JTs or 99 is a leak imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not a leak. You guys take this preflop pokerstove equity too far and having a decent edge won't make up for the positional disadvantage. Are you telling me that if the are 7 limpers and you look down to 22 in the small blind we are popping it?

[/ QUOTE ]

hey surfdoc,

what's your sb/bb raising range in a loose, live game with multiple(at least 4) limpers to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

In LP I like the raise and if the hand was one tick up I like the raise. T9 just makes too many second best hands. The other problem is that you tie yourself into this pot if you even get the tinyest bit of it. This early equity advantage seems like it could lead to some larger equity mistakes later.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
In LP I like the raise and if the hand was one tick up I like the raise. T9 just makes too many second best hands. The other problem is that you tie yourself into this pot if you even get the tinyest bit of it. This early equity advantage seems like it could lead to some larger equity mistakes later.

[/ QUOTE ]

so if you're in LP you like the raise? are you saying in LP you don't get "tied to the pot"? i hear people say this alot when it comes to raising certain types of holdings preflop(usually these suited connectors). is that ever a reason to not raise AK? because you might have to stay in with a gutshot or backdoor flush draw? if you make money on the raise, you make money on the raise.

fact of the matter is, if you have a decent amount of discipline(in that you can find a fold after flopping second pair, etc.) raising doesn't have as pronounced a negative effect postflop as you may think it does. remember i'm advocating raising this hand in loose, live passive games. that means alot of times you peel for a small bet and it's easy to fold second best hands because alot of opponents don't bluff. also, something can be said for the fact that raising helps you realize your pf all-in equity because you might make it further in the hand than you otherwise would have(this is a thin benefit, i admit).

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]

fact of the matter is, if you have a decent amount of discipline(in that you can find a fold after flopping second pair, etc.) raising doesn't have as pronounced a negative effect postflop as you may think it does.

[/ QUOTE ]

But James, it is would most likely be wrong to fold 2nd pair once the pot gets so large. So I am not following you on how discipline negates the effect of tying you to the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
also, something can be said for the fact that raising helps you realize your pf all-in equity because you might make it further in the hand than you otherwise would have(this is a thin benefit, i admit).

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising so we have the odds to chase later? (I know you said this was thin)

FWIW, I don't mind the raise. I certainly see the value in it in the game described. But I also see how our bad position can keep us from maximizing the value from our hand. And I see how bloating the pot will often make their postflop play correct, and tie us to the pot very often (bascially negating postflop skill edge). So is the value gained by pushing our preflop equity greater than the postflop edge we give up? I have no idea. If my hand is AKs, then the answer is obvious. If my hand KTo, then the answer is obvious. But T9s....i dunno.

--Rico

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

Raising T9s in this spot depends a lot on table conditions we don't know about. Since OP said that the game was the second lowest in the room, I'm going to assume that raising is probably right.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

fact of the matter is, if you have a decent amount of discipline(in that you can find a fold after flopping second pair, etc.) raising doesn't have as pronounced a negative effect postflop as you may think it does.

[/ QUOTE ]

But James, it is would most likely be wrong to fold 2nd pair once the pot gets so large. So I am not following you on how discipline negates the effect of tying you to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

sure you'll often have the odds to chase trips or two pair. i was referring to showing down a hand like middle pair because of the pot size.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
also, something can be said for the fact that raising helps you realize your pf all-in equity because you might make it further in the hand than you otherwise would have(this is a thin benefit, i admit).

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising so we have the odds to chase later? (I know you said this was thin)

FWIW, I don't mind the raise. I certainly see the value in it in the game described. But I also see how our bad position can keep us from maximizing the value from our hand. And I see how bloating the pot will often make their postflop play correct, and tie us to the pot very often (bascially negating postflop skill edge). So is the value gained by pushing our preflop equity greater than the postflop edge we give up? I have no idea. If my hand is AKs, then the answer is obvious. If my hand KTo, then the answer is obvious. But T9s....i dunno.

--Rico

[/ QUOTE ]

while it decreases our postflop edge, it also decreases the cost of being OOP. if nothing else, these two things should pretty much cancel each other out.

preflop we are basically making a wager that we'll win this hand more than 17% of the time. if we think this is the case, we are getting a return on our money that is greater than the cost of our investment. that equals profit.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

I promise to stop the hijack after just one more post....I am sure David did not want this thread to be about preflop, but rather does he make a play on the flop and turn now that it is HU after the BB bet into a gaggle of players. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
while it decreases our postflop edge, it also decreases the cost of being OOP. if nothing else, these two things should pretty much cancel each other out.


[/ QUOTE ]

How does raising preflop decrease the "cost" of being OOP?

-Rico

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I promise to stop the hijack after just one more post....I am sure David did not want this thread to be about preflop, but rather does he make a play on the flop and turn now that it is HU after the BB bet into a gaggle of players. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
while it decreases our postflop edge, it also decreases the cost of being OOP. if nothing else, these two things should pretty much cancel each other out.


[/ QUOTE ]

How does raising preflop decrease the "cost" of being OOP?

-Rico

[/ QUOTE ]

the same way it can decrease the value of having position. to avoid further hijackage i'm gonna pm my thoughts on this. sorry david.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

*Grunch*

If you were planning to checkraise... why didn't you?

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
It sucks to have a draw like this and barely be a favorite against any Ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

What sucks is playing a smal pot with this hand.

You have to rely on how these players play after the flop. You should have some idea if this hand will be bet or not. If you are in doubt that money will be going into this pot, then start betting. The worst case is that you get heads up, and that's still +EV. But you have a lot more to gain on the plus side if things go medium case or best case. In other words, you have more to gain by betting and things going well than you have to lose by betting and things going poorly.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its perfectly reasonable and I often play big draws passively to preserve my implied odds. I would bet the flop to avoid spots where its checked to the co for example and he bets, but since you didnt I like a c/c.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not so sure about this. A little more than half the time we get there it's with the flush. The flush card usually kills our action, IMO, unless someone has us beat. I'd rather just stuff the flop and keep the lead.

[/ QUOTE ]

That also helps disguise your hand if you do hit the flush, increasing your implied odds.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise pf.

bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your goal with the preflop raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

to make more money. against all of those limpers who are coming in with all kinds of crap, we have a pretty decent edge 6(or even 5 handed). i would speculate our 9Ts has at around 20-24% equity pf 6 ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're playing what will hopefully be a good draw from first position, which is bad, and you're paying more money preflop to give yourself the privelege of doing that. Not a good idea.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking that our position might take too much equity for raising to make sense. I think the worst suited connector I raise here is like QJ. I don't ever raise pp smaller than TT from the SB either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Playing for a set is a lot different than playing for a draw. Draws played out of position are more difficult and less profitabel to play than in position. With sets is doesn't matter because you know what your hand is on the flop. If you have 22 in the SB and you raise 8 limpers that's fine. Position is much less of an issue when playing this hand.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
so if you're in LP you like the raise? are you saying in LP you don't get "tied to the pot"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting tied to the pot isn't the issue. The issue is the quality of your decisions post flop. Playing this hand (i.e. hopefully a good draw) on the button leads to higher quality decisions and therefore better chance at profit when played from the button than from the SB.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
How does raising preflop decrease the "cost" of being OOP?

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume he means you are going to be playing OOP whether you like it or not, but you are willfully paying more for the privelege of playing OOP when you don't have to.

Re: Monster Draw played passively on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
*Grunch*

If you were planning to checkraise... why didn't you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because his plan was to try and c/r the field. Well, when it came back to him, it was HU so he changed courses.

Don't you change plans(or at least re-assess) when the situation that presents itself is different than the one you planned?

b