It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by TheEngineer

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all
 

rich,

you're in the political arena now. You need to develop thicker skin and plow forward. We know mason's attitude toward PPA is curious, but that doesn't mean it's in the best interest of you/PPA/legalization movement for you to get all offended, take your ball and go home.

Just do what mason asks, unless the PPA absolutely forbids you to, which they probably won't.

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]
Post deleted by TheEngineer

[/ QUOTE ]

Please let this mean the issue has been resolved..

If it needs to be said I 100% support TE..

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

I hope all is well now. I realize this can be frustrating at times, and you are in the thick of it much more than any of us. I have a few days where I ask "why bother?" (usually when I make a donation and seem to get "blown off" afterwards or am betrayed by someone I voted for) only to bounce back the next day and send more e-mails, make more calls, etc.

It sure is a frustrating battle when you are dealing with people who are in power.

Keep fighting bro, you are doing a great job (The views expressed are solely those of the author/poster and do not necessarily reflect the views of twoplustwo, Inc. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

You're the leader here TE......without you I'm afraid the movement could go in very insane rambling chaotic directions.

I don't know the details of what happened but please stay.

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

Hi Everyone:

I didn't read this post. But we're asking that all officials of the PPA, and the Engineer is a board member, to finish their posts with their name and position. The other PPA officials who post here have complied with this, and we want it done for the benefit of our posters, especially the newer ones, so they know who speaks with some authority concerning the PPA.

Best wishes,

Mason

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Everyone:

I didn't read this post. But we're asking that all officials of the PPA, and the Engineer is a board member, to finish their posts with their name and position. The other PPA officials who post here have complied with this, and we want it done for the benefit of our posters, especially the newer ones, so they know who speaks with some authority concerning the PPA.

Best wishes,

Mason

[/ QUOTE ]


Unfortunately that may "handcuff" TE's posting to that which he knows The PPA as an organization will approve.

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

I never get in the middle of squabbles, but there is a easy solution, when TE posts as an individual, keep as he does, as a PPA rep, have another names, say PPA-TE?

Just a thought as I can see where he may have a problem if all posts require his official title?

obg


[ QUOTE ]
Hi Everyone:

I didn't read this post. But we're asking that all officials of the PPA, and the Engineer is a board member, to finish their posts with their name and position. The other PPA officials who post here have complied with this, and we want it done for the benefit of our posters, especially the newer ones, so they know who speaks with some authority concerning the PPA.

Best wishes,

Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

multi-accounting? Actually, that is an excellent solution.

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Everyone:

I didn't read this post. But we're asking that all officials of the PPA, and the Engineer is a board member, to finish their posts with their name and position. The other PPA officials who post here have complied with this, and we want it done for the benefit of our posters, especially the newer ones, so they know who speaks with some authority concerning the PPA.

Best wishes,

Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason -

Is there some middle ground?

I know that people from Two Plus Two have posted as a person, and not Two Plus Two.(I'm thinking of David Sklansky with regards to the Absolute Poker scandal, and you said he was not speaking on behalf of Two Plus Two).

Is it possible for The Engineer and it not be the voice of the PPA (if The Engineer so desires)?

Or, does he always have to be speaking as the voice of the PPA?

Just curious.

Josh W

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]
I never get in the middle of squabbles, but there is a easy solution, when TE posts as an individual, keep as he does, as a PPA rep, have another names, say PPA-TE?



[/ QUOTE ]

Just to follow convention perhaps KY-PPA, as we have MassPPA, BryanPPA and John's PPADC or something like that. Given that the PPA State Rep emails follow the same convention this might be an in-elegant solution.


It would allow TE to be TE and Rich be a Board Member.


Just a thought,


D$D

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

I don't know what I missed, but did we just lose TE?

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

How about if, when posting his own opinion, TE uses the following:

The Engineer
Board Member
Poker Players Alliance
Speaking in this instance as a person and not as an official PPA board member

Just a thought. My example is slightly ludicrous, but would something along those lines be workable???

IndyFish
Just a forum member

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

Hi Fish:

[ QUOTE ]
How about if, when posting his own opinion, TE uses the following:

The Engineer
Board Member
Poker Players Alliance
Speaking in this instance as a person and not as an official PPA board member


[/ QUOTE ]

I had already suggested something along this line to him.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know that people from Two Plus Two have posted as a person, and not Two Plus Two.(I'm thinking of David Sklansky with regards to the Absolute Poker scandal, and you said he was not speaking on behalf of Two Plus Two).


[/ QUOTE ]

This post by David that you're referring to was only up for a few minutes. David called me immediately after posting it and we agreed that it was not appropriate at that time. So citing a post that was immediately removed with David in agreement isn't the same thing.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all
 

[ QUOTE ]
rich,

you're in the political arena now. You need to develop thicker skin and plow forward. We know mason's attitude toward PPA is curious, but that doesn't mean it's in the best interest of you/PPA/legalization movement for you to get all offended, take your ball and go home.

Just do what mason asks, unless the PPA absolutely forbids you to, which they probably won't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I should repost my earlier reply to this. I thought I could delete the entire thread. I posted that I'm not offended or upset or anything. Rather, I can't really post my own, independent thoughts if I have to sign them "PPA Board Member". If I do that, my posts will have to reflect the PPA's positions. This is impossible for me, as I never represent the PPA here. Rather, I represent us to the PPA.

Imagine if Skallagrim had to start signing each and every post as "PPA NH State Director". Obviously he'd be posting differently, because his posts would imply that he was posting in that capacity.

I do wonder if Greg Raymer will have to post with his board postion next time he posts here, or if the other state directors will have to.

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Fish:

[ QUOTE ]
How about if, when posting his own opinion, TE uses the following:

The Engineer
Board Member
Poker Players Alliance
Speaking in this instance as a person and not as an official PPA board member


[/ QUOTE ]

I had already suggested something along this line to him.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

That's really not workable. I NEVER represent PPA here. I ALWAYS represent our community to PPA. That's why I volunteered to work with PPA. I don't work for PPA and I don't represent PPA. I wanted to help them to improve. We need an effective PPA, unless someone has plans to form a new lobby.

Why not just change my title under my name to "PPA Board Member" and leave it at that, like you do for TruePoker CEO, Jay Cohen, and others? Also, if you make Skallagrim do this, what will be left of your Legislation forum?

I won't sign my name and "PPA Board Member" to posts that are not related to my role at PPA. If you don't want me posting anything but PPA-sanctioned posts, that's your decision.

For everyone else: does anyone here think we'd be better off without the PPA? Where would be be legislatively? How about Mass?

Anyway, as I didn't write this as a PPA Director or on behalf of PPA, I can't sign it with that title. Feel free to delete.

Cheers.

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know that people from Two Plus Two have posted as a person, and not Two Plus Two.(I'm thinking of David Sklansky with regards to the Absolute Poker scandal, and you said he was not speaking on behalf of Two Plus Two).


[/ QUOTE ]

This post by David that you're referring to was only up for a few minutes. David called me immediately after posting it and we agreed that it was not appropriate at that time. So citing a post that was immediately removed with David in agreement isn't the same thing.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason (and David)

I did not realize that.

My sincerest apologies.

And, seeing above where you say TE can specify that he is speaking on his own behalf is good middle ground.

Apologies,

Josh W

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi Everyone:

I didn't read this post. But we're asking that all officials of the PPA, and the Engineer is a board member, to finish their posts with their name and position. The other PPA officials who post here have complied with this, and we want it done for the benefit of our posters, especially the newer ones, so they know who speaks with some authority concerning the PPA.

Best wishes,

Mason

[/ QUOTE ]


Unfortunately that may "handcuff" TE's posting to that which he knows The PPA as an organization will approve.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. It's nothing personal. I simply won't be effective with this constraint. Perhaps everyone here should be required to sign with their real names, jobs, and volunteer efforts.

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]

Why not just change my title under my name to "PPA Board Member" and leave it at that, like you do for TruePoker CEO, Jay Cohen, and others? Also, if you make Skallagrim do this, what will be left of your Legislation forum?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to me this is a reasonable approach

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why not just change my title under my name to "PPA Board Member" and leave it at that, like you do for TruePoker CEO, Jay Cohen, and others? Also, if you make Skallagrim do this, what will be left of your Legislation forum?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to me this is a reasonable approach

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I hate to lose the title you guys were kind enough to give me, of course. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why not just change my title under my name to "PPA Board Member" and leave it at that, like you do for TruePoker CEO, Jay Cohen, and others? Also, if you make Skallagrim do this, what will be left of your Legislation forum?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to me this is a reasonable approach

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I hate to lose the title you guys were kind enough to give me, of course. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

There's room for both...

or

LOC: PPA Board Member

TE needs to be allowed to post as an "individual" or we all suffer...Most of all the movement that the "individual" started and advanced suffers and in fact comes to a halt...

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

If Engineer and Skillgram are no longer allowed to post on 2p2 due to conflicts please let me know where you guys will be posting and I'll quit using 2p2 and use that other site. I think it would be a massive loss if 2p2 were to lose such valuable members as Engineer and Skillgram.

PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT LET THIS HAPPEN BERGE!

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]
If Engineer and Skillgram are no longer allowed to post on 2p2 due to conflicts please let me know where you guys will be posting and I'll quit using 2p2 and use that other site. I think it would be a massive loss if 2p2 were to lose such valuable members as Engineer and Skillgram.

PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT LET THIS HAPPEN BERGE!

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

I sort of like:

Noted PPA Authority

Just an idea.

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

Hi Berge:

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why not just change my title under my name to "PPA Board Member" and leave it at that, like you do for TruePoker CEO, Jay Cohen, and others? Also, if you make Skallagrim do this, what will be left of your Legislation forum?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to me this is a reasonable approach

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll have to talk it over with Mat Sklansky, but I'm inclined to say no. The reason is that the PPA is not an organization we actively support. We have many issues with it even though our goals are the same, and it's my opinion that as these issues come out, they may begin to hurt the cause instead of helping it. (See the recent article in "Politico" that was linked to in another thread.)

So since our official stated position towards the PPA is neutral, for them to have free use of these boards, we want their board members and other important officials to identify themselves as such to all posters when they participate here. Notice there are no constraints as to what one of these people can post, and I'm not sure if changing the title under the name will be visible enough.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

First of all, I have to say I am really humbled (if I am not being leveled [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ) to be included in the above posts along side TheEngineer. I can only say thanks for the kind words.

I say I am humbled because although I like to think my posts help advance the discussion and the cause, what I have done for the cause of legal poker pales in comparison to what TE has accomplished. This truly would be a much poorer forum without him, still so with just less of him.

As to the issue at hand, I can see both sides to a degree, and hope that the posts by Berge20 imply a compromise is soon to come. When I first saw this thread I asked myself the same thing: does that mean I gotta sign my posts too, or does this rule only apply to board members? Certainly I never thought any of my posts would ever have been interpreted as a PPA statement despite the fact I said I am a PPA local rep many times. I think TE has tried to be pretty careful to maintain the same sort of distinction between anything that came from the PPA officially and the vast majority of posts that were clearly his personal opinion or statement. If he has to sign everything "PPA Board Member" it will be much MORE difficult for him to maintain that distinction.

But I dont have a problem with TE's (or mine, for that matter) PPA affiliation being publicly displayed. To what ever extent this allows people to better evaluate what we say, I have no problem with that.

But one thing, this is the internet; no way am I posting my real name all over these boards, for all sorts of privacy and security reasons. If I have to do that, I too doubt that I would post here at all. I cant believe that was really a requirement, so I hope that was never really an issue.

Skallagrim

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

Something better be worked out. I for one will be [censored] if this seemingly petty issue causes us to lose any steam.

-Uglyowl
Accountant
PPA Paid Member
Father of one

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

A rep in a state if far different than a member of the board of directors. Legally, the board of directors have ultimate responsibility for the affairs of a non for profit entity. A rep in a state may, or may not, be an employee but would not have any responsibility for the affairs of the entity.
A director of a non for profit entity should know its sources of financing and how it uses its money. A director could have potential liability if the entity has some financial problem even if the director does not have actual knowledge of the problem. A rep has no such potential liability.
Thus, I can understand why Mason would demand that a board of director member sign his posts as agent of the PPA while a state rep would not have such a requirement. Of course, Bryan needs to sign his posts as an official of the PPA because he actually represents the PPA to this group.
TE, being on the board of directors of the PPA links you to it whether or not you intend such a link. Perhaps you should examine whether you really want to serve as a director or just a state rep for Kentucky. You should seek legal advise from a lawyer in Kentucky if you have not yet done so.

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]
A rep in a state if far different than a member of the board of directors......

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, it's Mason's site. If that's what he wants, that's fine with me. No hard feelings at all.

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

Mason,

Will you respond to the question of whether this will apply to Greg Raymer?

Also, I don't believe a custom title would imply 2+2's endorsement of the PPA. As was alluded to, Jay Cohen's title does not reflect 2+2's official support for WSEX.com.

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
rich,

you're in the political arena now. You need to develop thicker skin and plow forward.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is impossible for me, as I never represent the PPA here. Rather, I represent us to the PPA.



[/ QUOTE ]

The middle child in me says you two should be able to work this out.

This is 2+2's forum.

TE does often defend the PPA, sometimes beyond need.

IMO you have both dug this grave.

If you two can't work this out then perhaps this might be the spark that might create a fire in the PPA's own forum. At least everyone there is a member and there has been talk of utilizing it for the co-ordination of various activities.

Bryan or any of us could post the occasional update and it would be up to those really committed to find the information.

Both sides have a good deal to loose here.

This is not another set back comming at a good time.


D$D

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If Engineer and Skillgram are no longer allowed to post on 2p2 due to conflicts please let me know where you guys will be posting and I'll quit using 2p2 and use that other site. I think it would be a massive loss if 2p2 were to lose such valuable members as Engineer and Skillgram.

PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT LET THIS HAPPEN BERGE!

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

- whangarei
PPA member
Degen

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]

Why not just change my title under my name to "PPA Board Member" and leave it at that, like you do for TruePoker CEO, Jay Cohen, and others?


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'll have to talk it over with Mat Sklansky, but I'm inclined to say no.
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

I just wanted to echo the opinion that changing titles to reflect relationships to the PPA is a reasonable request, and would certainly seem to be sufficiently visible.

I imagine I wouldn't be alone in being disappointed in any 2+2 policy decision that handcuffed anyone like Skalla or TE's from freely expressing their personal opinions or ideas because of their link to the PPA, given the current environment for poker.

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]
Will you respond to the question of whether this will apply to Greg Raymer?

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg is posting very little right at the moment. But when he has posted on this forum during the past few months, he has made it clear that he was a PPA board member.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

Hi Skallagrim:

Right now we're only requiring PPA Board Members and certain other officials to identify themselves as such. So in your case you don't need to do anything different.

[ QUOTE ]
But one thing, this is the internet; no way am I posting my real name all over these boards, for all sorts of privacy and security reasons

[/ QUOTE ]

TE real name and bio is up on the PPA website. So with that being the case, asking him to do the same here should have virtually nothing to do with privacy and security reasons.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all
 

[ QUOTE ]
We know mason's attitude toward PPA is curious

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Everyone:

I want to address this a little more, and you'll soon see why even though I won't be specific and I'm a little bit uncomfortable doing this. But it needs to stated this one time so everyone has a better understanding where Two Plus Two is coming from whether you agree or not.

We share the same goal as the PPA and hope they are successful, but we have many issues concerning the PPA. Some of these have been discussed on this forum in detail, while others have only been discussed in private conversations between Two Plus Two and representatives of the PPA,

Our belief is that if these issues come out publicly, they have the potential to damage the cause. Now it just so happens that it is becoming known that these boards (at www.twoplustwo.com) are where it's at when it comes to all things poker, and a lot of people (and perhaps some organizations) are now reading them. So if I start listing things here, I could damage the PPA. In addition, we took down our attorney's statement from last year for precisely this reason (and at the request of a representative of the PPA).

Thus, our position is now neutral towards this organization. We hope the PPA is successful, and we also hope they will continue to make enough changes so that our position can be moved to positive.

Once it moves to positive, we will drop the requirement for identification of their board members and other certain officials that we designate. But until then, unless we change our decision, we will require identification on this board.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all
 

I have been a bit critical of Mason in other threads (and was very glad to see the previous statement removed) but I don't think it is unreasonable for the Engineer to make clear that he is a PPA board member - not a PPA spokesperson - in his posts.

Engineer keep doing what you are doing but take pride in being a PPA Board member!(NOT PPA SPOKESPERSON)

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

I agree with 2+2's position on the PPA's lack of transparency. Opacity breeds and feeds corruption and in the long run that is harmful to our cause even if there is significant short term gain.

However, on this point you are just plain wrong. This forum helps our cause because it is informal. This forum shares one of the powers of an university in that free ideas can be offered and explored without fear of long term consequence. Anybody can say pretty much whatever they want here, allowing golden ideas to be planted and the careful reader to sift them from the sand.

When you require some of your posters to don their cloak of position, then this forum's informality and its power are diminished.

If your concern is with the consistency of a forum rule, then maybe the rule itself is flawed and should be amended. If your concern is with some people getting the wrong idea, then sticky a disclaimer.

Indeed, by singling out the PPA here,
your problems with the PPA smacks of something personal.

Re: It\'s been a pleasure working with you all *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Will you respond to the question of whether this will apply to Greg Raymer?

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg is posting very little right at the moment. But when he has posted on this forum during the past few months, he has made it clear that he was a PPA board member.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

From speaking to Greg this week, doesn't he have positions and major interests in more than the PPA?

A number of us may serve on boards or serve as directors, agents, or representitives of any number of organizations. Which is really none of your business, unless we choose to make those affiliations known.

I feel I understand some of the issues here, beyond what has been posted or unposted to date.

But wasn't TE to some degree nominated to the Board in part because of his efforts that grew up here, but also becuase he was a valued member of this community.

You may not see it and TE hasn't said it, but to some degree TE while not an offical 2+2 LLC PPA member but about as close as you are going to get near term.

I really don't understand this move that in effect pushes him further from you rather than closer. Yes TE comes off many times as a PPA apologist, and his vaciliation between his "authority" as a PPA board member and his private individual musings is an issue, but even TE has stated he feels he represents 2+2 to the board not the PPA to 2+2.

Given that now the job of representing the PPA to this forum is now held by Bryan there really is little need for TE to defend the PPA as he has in the past. But as a State Rep he does have the same responsibilities as does Skall or anyone else who takes one of those positions to represent that State and be held accountible for the success or failure of those actions.

Work it out gentleman!


D$D