Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

One of the questions that crosses my mind everytime I'm looking at my small blind on the felt. Disregarding all the rules about position and playable hands, I can't help but think "Hey, whether I like it or not, I'm already in for X amount, it seems a waste not to throw in the rest". Do you have a rule of thumb on how to play this? Because you're already partially vested would you allow yourself to play worse hands than normal or do you stick to your guns and let the money go if you don't have a playable openers?
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Best Regards and Good Luck!...J.Bagadonuts

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

For me, my rule is raise or fold. I rarely EVER call. If my hand isn't worth raising, it darn sure won't be worth calling a raise, which is what the BB may do. So, no matter whether the SB is 1/2 the BB or 1/3, I'll fold with junk. A6s, for instance. Looks like a decent hand, but would you call a 3-4x raise from the BB with it? I wouldn't.

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

A lot of money is lost playing junk in the SB because you feel you should call.

If there are a number of limpers I will generally complete. Not saying it is right but if say 4 limps then I am getting 11/1 which is good odds. However, if it folds around I raise or fold.

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

I am same with bagadonuts, i am playing small blinds (0.5\.10), and its not much money, isnt it worth trying to call with not very good cards but after flop they can make two pairs or maybe three...?

Thanks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

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I am same with bagadonuts, i am playing small blinds (0.5\.10), and its not much money, ...


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Well, I guess it depends on whether your buyin is not much money. At .05/.10, I'd assume you buy in for at least $5. It takes no time at all to lose this $5 if you consistently call with rags.

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am same with bagadonuts, i am playing small blinds (0.5\.10), and its not much money, isnt it worth trying to call with not very good cards but after flop they can make two pairs or maybe three...?

Thanks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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No you can't make three pairs - only joking.

If you play junk here, more often than not you miss the flop. Even if you catch a pair you still could be behind. You are out of position and now what do you do?

I think you will find calling junk will be a long term loser. Yes sometimes you strike gold but it is rare.

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

You are not playing for money - you are playing for bets, measured in BB/100 that you win or lose. Do not ever think that "its only $1", its 10x the big blind, and how that bet measures relative to the pot, your stack, etc. that matters.

In a limit setting (easier for this purpose) and you are facing a bet on the river...the dollar value is absolutely irrelevant whether you are playing 2/4 cent or at the Bellagio playing 4000/8000. It's a bet of x into a pot of y, and how does my hand fit into the textures.

One of the single easiest ways to be a broke microstakes (hell any stakes) player is undervaluing money.

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

read OP, rest tl;dr

It really depends on two things for me. A - who is on my left; B - how the game is. B>A too.

B
If it is a super juicy game, I prob won't worry too much about the player on my direct left most of the time (in fact, I'll be MORE inclined to call his raises with trash than if the game is tough). If the game is pretty tough, then I'll put a little more stock into my position on the flop.

A
If it is a meh game, then this really depends on the player to my left. For a while, I'll play tighter PF than normal until I can pick up a read and adjust.

I really have no problem calling a raise from the SB in most situations. The thing that you might think about though is more your odds. Disregard your hand for a minute. Say UTG raises to 3bb. MP2, CO and the BTN call. You are currently getting 5:1 on your call. This is why it really depends on the game for me. So many people play weak-tight poker on the flop/turn that makes these 5:1 PF calls grand for the bankroll. In most of the super loose games I play in, there are really only three or four people that I don't like playing with because they will repop from the BB with air just to see it go around again. Then, they are super aggressive through the rest of the hand. In this case, I'll play a little tighter from the SB.

So, its not about "I'm half in already so I HAVE to call," but more looking at your odds, your opponents, and making profitable plays.

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

If no one has raised the bet, I figure I am getting good enough odds to call, 3-1 at the least, but I fold when I miss the flop and someone bets. I won't call with complete rags, but I definitely call with A6o.
Other factors are how many others called. If everyone folded and I call with A6o, and the BB makes a bet, I would probably still call, cause I would think he is trying to steal with less of a hand. I'd see the flop, and even bet the ace. Of course, most things I say come out sounding like HEE HAAAW.

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

Personally, once the money is posted I don't count it as my money.

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

it's very situational

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

[ QUOTE ]
So many people play weak-tight poker on the flop/turn that makes these 5:1 PF calls grand for the bankroll.

So, its not about "I'm half in already so I HAVE to call," but more looking at your odds, your opponents, and making profitable plays.

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I'm in the same boat here. By PT I'm much looser in the SB than most consider profitable but that is due to a similar comment to that from a Gus Hansen profile in a certain poker mag. With those odds or even just a player from the button and a weak tight or fit or fold BB, these situations can be turned profitably easily. Keep in mind that there is very few hands that are anything more than a 3:1 dog pf and the chances of even being that are even slimmer after it being folded through so many seats. I also agree that this is a time to play fit or fold. You weren't the pf aggressor and you are out of position so unless you have an excellent read on the limper(s) any bet on the flop with air here is dangerous, no problem with a check/fold on the flop here with air but the 1 in 3 times you connect or the 1 in 15 times (ballpark est) that you flop a monster will make it well worth it.

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

It is an extremely common leak to complete the small blind too much, and even to defend the small blind against raises too much.

You flop 2 pair or better about 3.5% of the time. When that happens, you have a strong hand, but you might not get paid off, and you might not win. When you have a trash hand, it is not very valuable to flop one pair out of position. It is hard to get paid off by weaker hands, while you may have to pay off stronger ones.

Let's take a hand like A2o. Most bad players will not consider folding it from the small blind. It can easily be the only ace out there, flopping top pair means you don't have to worry about any overcards, A2o is only about a 70-30 underdog to KK, and it can make a straight using both cards. However, in 10-handed limit games, players lose an average of about 0.27 big bets when they are dealt A2o in the small blind, as compared with losing about 0.25 big bets by folding preflop rather than completing the small blind. While there are profitable times to play A2o from the small blind, players would be better off on average folding it every time rather than playing it as they do now. If A2o is often a close fold, then many weaker hands are easy folds.

In limit, whether the small blind is 1/3 or 1/2 or 2/3 of the big blind matters a lot. When it is 2/3, and the big blind is not raising frequently, completing is better than folding even with the worst trash. When the small blind is 1/2, I usually complete with many, but not all suited hands, and many offsuit connectors and 1-gappers. When the small blind is 1/3, and in NL, I require a decent hand to complete after limpers. I usually fold K9o and A7o. The positional disadvantage is large relative to the discount.

A common mistake is to imagine that you are getting good odds in multiway pots. There is a huge difference between getting odds to beat one player who can often be beaten with one pair, and getting odds that looks the same to try to come up with the best hand out of several. Offsuit disconnected hands do worse in multiway pots relative to par than they do in heads-up pots. That there are several players limping in should make you fold trash hands even faster than when you aren't getting odds that look as good, particularly if the limpers are somewhat selective.

"Position, position, position!"
"It's a kicker game."
These mantras argue against playing trash from the small blind.

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

see pzhon, u kick my butt in the math then come over where I think I know something and make me look even worse [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

Look at the small blind this way. If you were playing .05/.10 Would you limp that hand on the button? If not, why are you completing with it at .10/.20 out of position?

You're out of position, even when you make a hand it's harder to extract value.

Once I stop completing the SB simply because it was so cheap, my winning rate from the SB shot up.

Completing the SB is bleeding away money.

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is an extremely common leak to complete the small blind too much, and even to defend the small blind against raises too much.

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QFT all unl and ssnl players need to post this up next to their computers. this isn't to say that you shouldn't defend once in a while. you should. but that % is much lower than ALL of you would like to think.

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of money is lost playing junk in the SB because you feel you should call.

If there are a number of limpers I will generally complete. Not saying it is right but if say 4 limps then I am getting 11/1 which is good odds. However, if it folds around I raise or fold.

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that's actually a pretty good post IMO becuase it's basic message is that if you are getting incredible odds to call you should, that's all there is too it when playing from the SB when it comes down to it. If you are a good player you can get away from your weaker hands post flop so if you are getting huge odds to call PF many pros argue you should fill the blind with almost any two cards becuase the chance of flopping two pair or better is high enough to justify this call in the long run. On the other hand lots of money is lost when you fill it with A4o with little money in the pot becuase you are playing a hand that seems like it's worth half a blind but is easily reverse dominated.

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

I just read Harrington II and according to his section on heads up, you should always complete in the small blind with any two cards. He says to do so in heads up, but his argument is that the pot is giving you 3-1, so you have to. I have to assume if their are better odds made by more limpers, you would have to call even with 72o. Am I interpreting this wrong?

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

The main difference is that it takes a much stronger hand to win a multiway pot vs a headsup pot.

Headsup the pair of deuces could well be the best hand on the flop, but it almost never is when you take the flop 4 or 5 ways.

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just read Harrington II and according to his section on heads up, you should always complete in the small blind with any two cards. He says to do so in heads up, but his argument is that the pot is giving you 3-1, so you have to. I have to assume if their are better odds made by more limpers, you would have to call even with 72o. Am I interpreting this wrong?

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When you're heads up, you're first to act preflop, but last to act post flop. So you have position postflop, which is a good thing. Plus, when it's heads up, it's more likely that the BB doesn't have a hand.

When you're playing 8-10 handed, it's a lot more likely that someone behind you has a hand. And you're out of position. So even if you hit, you could still be dead.

There's a reason Harrington has a whole section on heads up play, it's very different then when it's a full table or short handed.

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

But if the hand has 5 players, aren't the odds enough to call with any two?

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

I play 6-max NLHE. The only time I'm completing the SB is if the entire table limps and I have connecting cards or one gappers, otherwise it's a fold. It should be obvious, but if I miss the flop completely, I'm done with the hand. I rarely if ever complete the small blind...it's raise or fold 98% of the time. If it's folded around to me in the SB I'm raising any 2 cards. If I'm in the BB and the SB completes, I'm raising. Like I said, I play 6-max so this may not apply to full ring.

AC

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

I was just checking this because I was curious. My small blind play is skitso.

On a monthly basis since June I've run anywhere between 15/10 and 34/23 from the small blind. For each of these months (over 20k hands in each case) I was between -0.07 and +0.05 BB per hand - which I think is pretty good considering that you are -0.25 BB per hand if you always fold the SB.

I'm left with the conclusion that a variety of styles can be successful from the SB - and the better you play (out of position), the more you can play.

Lucky

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

lucky, yeah certain people's biggest winning position (other than co/btn) is the sb. (these people typically play pretty laggy, but they do it well) it really depends on your style. kudos to you for playing a lot and not losing much from the sb. for my style, it comes down to table selection and then my seat.

Re: Small Blind, You\'re In Anyways...
 

It's all the postflop play that you have to worry about, that is the concern.

Don't look at the preflop cost, look at the POST-flop cost