AA ugly Rivercard
 

bsolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls, CO calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9SB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls, CO calls.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9BB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, CO folds.

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (11BB, 2 players)
Hero ?

Ok every draw just came in. What is the best play here? First orbit so no reads yet. check/fold is obviously not an option, check/call not really great since he can play perfectly against me and I dont think he will bet a worse hand ever and i lose value against worse ones. I know I wont be able to Bet/fold in this spot. And Bet/call also sucks because i payoff so many times when behind.
What do you think?

Results:
Final pot: 11BB

Re: AA ugly Rivercard
 

I b/c and hope to see Tx - b/f if i have good reads.

Re: AA ugly Rivercard
 

Seems like a standard bet/fold to me.

Betting is far better than c/c here IMO.

Re: AA ugly Rivercard
 

I'm not comfortable with b/f, we can beat T7 and T8.

Re: AA ugly Rivercard
 

Why is a b/f better then a c/c here?

I personally would c/c. All the draws got there but you can beat any 10(not 10-6 obv) and he could be bluffing(sucks we don't have a read yet).
There are 11BB in the pot already....so while you are probably beat you only need to be good 8% of the time.

I'm new to this game and forum...so please lemme know if anything I wrote is redonkulous or poop. I'm here to get better.

Re: AA ugly Rivercard
 

Reads are big in this spot. What does he cold call three (well two since he's in the BB) and then raise the flop with?

Since there is no read, I would put him on a pp 22-99, excluding 66, A10-J10, or QJs KJs, even maybe KQs hearts. Since hero has the ace of hearts, and the ten of hearts is on the board, a lot of likely flush draw hands are taken, so the odds of him being on a flush draw less likely. Problem is, two of the hands we were beating before the river now are beating us, 77 and 99.

Using this range, I b/f, I can't put him on 107 or 108, so basically every hand he raises beats us. Also, b/f is better than c/c because he may not bet A10-J10 hands.

Re: AA ugly Rivercard
 

[ QUOTE ]
Reads are big in this spot. What does he cold call three (well two since he's in the BB) and then raise the flop with?

Since there is no read, I would put him on a pp 22-99, excluding 66, A10-J10, or QJs KJs, even maybe KQs hearts. Since hero has the ace of hearts, and the ten of hearts is on the board, a lot of likely flush draw hands are taken, so the odds of him being on a flush draw less likely. Problem is, two of the hands we were beating before the river now are beating us, 77 and 99.

Using this range, I b/f, I can't put him on 107 or 108, so basically every hand he raises beats us. Also, b/f is better than c/c because he may not bet A10-J10 hands.

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TY. I wanted to know the reasoning behind b/f rather than c/c.

Re: AA ugly Rivercard
 

Ugh I would have a tough time bet/folding here in such a big pot against an unknown. Bet/calling looks awful too. And if BB has a clue than check/calling is bad.

Since we got nothing, I'd probably check/call and make a note.

Re: AA ugly Rivercard
 

[ QUOTE ]
Reads are big in this spot. What does he cold call three (well two since he's in the BB) and then raise the flop with?

Since there is no read, I would put him on a pp 22-99, excluding 66, A10-J10, or QJs KJs, even maybe KQs hearts. Since hero has the ace of hearts, and the ten of hearts is on the board, a lot of likely flush draw hands are taken, so the odds of him being on a flush draw less likely. Problem is, two of the hands we were beating before the river now are beating us, 77 and 99.

Using this range, I b/f, I can't put him on 107 or 108, so basically every hand he raises beats us. Also, b/f is better than c/c because he may not bet A10-J10 hands.

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You made a good point about flush draws, but I disagree with your range for an unknown. I just found a hand with J6o for BB at 5/10 with the same pf action. Just put T7s and T8s in his range seems a fair discount imo. I don't say b/f is wrong, but I can't convince myself.

@chipitcrucial the idea is : if we are beat, BB bets if we check, but checks behind very often a worst hand. So if we are 99.9% sure we are beat when BB raises, b/f win very often 1 more bet when we have the best hand.

Re: AA ugly Rivercard
 

If you put 108 and 107 in his range, you have to ask is he going to raise that on the river? If he has 108 then I don't think so, because he would have raised the turn. The river card is a big scare card for 108. I also don't think he raises 107, even though he upgraded to two pair, again, that's a very scary card for his hand.

Re: AA ugly Rivercard
 

Bet/fold is best against a majority of players.But a thinking TAG would identify this spot as being one to do something similar to a value/bluff raise on river.And we also have the half retarded that raises without realizing why it can be a good spot to raise. The cost of being up against those players is enormous since you lose the whole pot but against the other players you´re winning a bet only occasionally.
That being said I still think the players that raise the river with a lesser hand is so few that bet/fold is OK.
But it is a dangerous habit to bet/folding scary rivers.
If you done this against me I would have written a note about it before the next hand was dealt since I don´t have to be Einstein to put you on an overpair.

Re: AA ugly Rivercard
 

You must bet, and I would call a raise against an unknown.

Re: AA ugly Rivercard
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you put 108 and 107 in his range, you have to ask is he going to raise that on the river? If he has 108 then I don't think so, because he would have raised the turn. The river card is a big scare card for 108. I also don't think he raises 107, even though he upgraded to two pair, again, that's a very scary card for his hand.

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Raising the turn with T8 would obviously be a huge mistake of him anyway.

Re: AA ugly Rivercard
 

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You must bet, and I would call a raise against an unknown.

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agree

Re: AA ugly Rivercard
 

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TY. I wanted to know the reasoning behind b/f rather than c/c.

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You should bet because he is checking behind a lot of the hands that would have called a bet. He might check beind AT, KT, QT, JT, T8, 55, 44, 33, 22, 98s and prolly a few more.

If you check he knows what you have and he will valueown you if his IQ is higher than 2.

The point I was trying to make was that I dont care what you do vs a raise as log as you dont c/c. I will prolly b/c an unknown here but IMO its something like

b/c &gt;&gt; b/f &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; c/c

Besides. He doesnt have a 9 very often. He might have the fd but its not even sure he will raise it if he is a bit weak and bad. Just bet and pick up value from KT.

Re: AA ugly Rivercard
 

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TY. I wanted to know the reasoning behind b/f rather than c/c.

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You should bet because he is checking behind a lot of the hands that would have called a bet. He might check beind AT, KT, QT, JT, T8, 55, 44, 33, 22, 98s and prolly a few more.

If you check he knows what you have and he will valueown you if his IQ is higher than 2.

The point I was trying to make was that I dont care what you do vs a raise as log as you dont c/c. I will prolly b/c an unknown here but IMO its something like

b/c &gt;&gt; b/f &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; c/c

Besides. He doesnt have a 9 very often. He might have the fd but its not even sure he will raise it if he is a bit weak and bad. Just bet and pick up value from KT.

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TY. Big help