Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

A lot of times pre-flot, huge overbets usually tend to be hands like 99,TT, or JJ (at least from my experience). Sometimes even lower pocket pairs. So if I had Queens with a big overbet (notice I didn't say reraise), I would almost always call this bet (depending on type of player, reads, etc).

That being said, I'm wondering if any of you have tried over betting pocket rockets like this. I wonder if over time this would result in more or less profit (they certainly would be cracked less often than say a standard 3.5-5xbb raise)

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

since you're playing 5/10NL w/ a $400 buyin just make it 4Xbb+1 with them and that puts plenty of your stack in preflop to get all in on any flop

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

I've had the same curiousity and tried to use Aces to represent 99,TT,JJ a few times myself with bigger raises. It has never worked. To try this play, I'm looking to be at a table with a player or two that loves to come over the top and push out somebody they view as an over tight player and I'm looking to bet the right amount to give the villian(s) the hope they can come over the top with ATC and get me to fold. I've only tried the play a few times without getting a caller/reraiser. My data does not mean much really. It's probably a waste of time but I share in your curiosity. I hate to risk letting such a nice preflop hand go unplayed.

I like playing the hand against 1 or 2 players and generally try to make the bet from my pos that gets me there. A normal bet that is being called by 1 or two players in the game. Not a small bet or large bet. Nothing is worse than waiting 3 hours for your shot at AA than to make a 2xbb raise and everybody folds or you get 5 or 6 callers. Don't fear playing this hand after the flop. Look to play it. Obviously it's a clear preflop reraiser if your reraised. You love to catch underpairs and AK/AQ/AJ willing to call or bet all in. Of course, many factors can change the action on this hand.

Dave

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

This can work but the most important variable in your analysis is knowing the players at your table.

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

Yesterday I was playing in a tourney on Stars and in the first level (10/20) I over-bet Aces by accident. I meant to do a standard 3x open raise but I must've hit the 7 with the 6 so my raise ended up being 670 ! I had lost a couple small pots so I had about 1350 so this raise was half my stack. Some one shoved in over the top on me with JJ, I called obviously and doubled up. This was by total accident but I too started wondering how often you could get it all-in pre with AA (which is ideally what you want to do if you can)by making a big overbet. Essentially I think it comes down to what other players at your table have. Most of the time a call here and you are probably gonna see JJ,QQ,KK and sometimes AK by someone who thinks you raised huge with TT or JJ and they'll be racing with you. I guess you would have to know the table well and they would have to have seen you do it with TT-KK in the past.

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

Pushing all-in is called the "move of honor" in some contexts. Search for it and you should find examples, such as section 11 of an old SSNL FAQ.

I think in microstakes full ring games, the most profitable way to play AA UTG may be to push. UTG pushes get called surprisingly often (perhaps because there are so many people who can make a stupid call), and that way you get all of the money of the player with 66 before he sees the overcards on the flop. I've had my UTG push called with T4 outside the blinds--I think he just wanted to know what my push meant, and was willing to pay up to $25 to find out. You only need to get called a small fraction of the time to make it more profitable than playing AA in the normal fashion.

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

In turbo tournaments, where the blinds go up way too quickly, I have a tendency to go all-in in the earliest rounds whenever I'm given AA (as long as there are still a fair few people in the pot). This is because people are aware they need to build a stack quickly and will call with much weaker hands.

I know that most of the time, the last thing you want to do in a tournament is go all-in pre-flop early on, but turbo tournaments don't allow you time to build a stack properly.

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of times pre-flot, huge overbets usually tend to be hands like 99,TT, or JJ (at least from my experience). Sometimes even lower pocket pairs. So if I had Queens with a big overbet (notice I didn't say reraise), I would almost always call this bet (depending on type of player, reads, etc).

That being said, I'm wondering if any of you have tried over betting pocket rockets like this. I wonder if over time this would result in more or less profit (they certainly would be cracked less often than say a standard 3.5-5xbb raise)

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll do it sometimes if I'm bored and haven't been getting action with AA in awhile, but I go with the fake typo - raising to $44 instead of $4 at 100NL - instead of a push. Sometimes you get people coming over the top with hands that they would never call a push with.

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

My first post but an interesting subject (pre flop raising) For me and I think post flop style also adds to pre flop raising and its effectiveness, I have found that in a large majority of the times that I raise, I raise the exact same amount. That is if I am the first into the pot. It doesn't matter from which position or how big my hand is. If I raise it is the same amount and I want the other payers to notice this.

The reverse of this of course would be to be all over the map and be able to make some 10-12x raises. Maybe even the shove. For me however I have found that I always make it the same which disguises the strength somewhat. Small enough that someone with JJ or QQ will re raise with. TPTK do not feel as much on guard if say AQ were to make a larger call and then hit the Q.

If say though I am in the blinds or on the button and the table has limped in I will raise much higher than a standard raise. Obviously I don't want a crowd. Strangely enough that is when I typically face an all in bet. Usually from a weak ace or KQ.

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

This play depends on the current typical pf action, stack sizes, your table image, your position, your postflop skills and the style (and postflop skills) of the other players.

With a short to medium stack, you should probably make a bet that will create a pot size such that a shove on any flop would make sense.

With a very short stack, a shove is probably the correct thing to do pf.

With a very deep stack, an overbet will have to be a calculated choice based on the factors I mentioned in para 1.

In general, remember that you play poker to win money (or chips) so you want to get value for your good hands. If you go all-in with 200BBs, you will win 1.5BBs very often and may get called from time to time with AK, KK, or QQ. However, sometimes players will fold those hand to a 200BB all-in bet so you will be losing lots of value.

As well, large overbets might get hands like AT, AJ, AQ, KQ etc to fold where a flop with a high card in it might get lots of chips from those hands if they hit.

Edit: As a last thought, a normal raise may be more likely to get re-raised than an overbet. Again, this may give you more value.

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

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I know that most of the time, the last thing you want to do in a tournament is go all-in pre-flop early on, but turbo tournaments don't allow you time to build a stack properly.

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Sorry, no. I want to get it all in with aces every time early. Or in the middle, and late too.

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I know that most of the time, the last thing you want to do in a tournament is go all-in pre-flop early on, but turbo tournaments don't allow you time to build a stack properly.

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Sorry, no. I want to get it all in with aces every time early. Or in the middle, and late too.

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ya lol @ thinking they have an edge thats >> AA all in pre ever

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

But 56 has 6 outs and AA only has 2......

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

yes but 56 needs to catch MIN 2 before AA needs one.

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

[ QUOTE ]
yes but 56 needs to catch MIN 2 before AA needs one.

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You're thinking about this wrong. This link provides a good explanation.

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

Rusty's just trying to stir the crap, no way that guys remark is serious here.

Dave

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

I don't mind going all-in pre-flop early in a tournament but I'm not going to actively push for it because I like to be more certain I'm going to win. With AA, you know you're ahead (and going all-in with the best hand can't be EV-) but, with five cards to come, there is too much chance involved. A good player will minimize the chance factor as much as possible.

I would normally like to make a raise strong enough to scare away any borderline hands whilst, at the same time, drawing in PPs and AK. The hands I would like to see if I were to go all-in. I do this because I'm comfortable post-flop. Obviously, if you don't think you can outplay your opponents on the later streets, you're probably best off moving all-in.

As the tournament progresses and the blinds get higher, I can see more advantages to going all-in pre-flop. The blinds you win when everyone folds are more substantial and there is less space to manouevre post-flop when a larger percentage of your stack is already committed.

The only exception is in turbo tournaments when you're under a lot more pressure to double up.

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

It definitely works in low limit STTs when the table's shorthanded (during which, according to one winning strategy, your only moves should be Fold or All-In).

It's a great feeling when you steal blinds with two All-Ins in a row, and then pick up AA and do it a third time...

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

Well first off, "overbetting" is never a good idea. The term itself implies you bet too much. With aces, your goal is to get as much in as you possibly can pre-flop. If you are familiar with the players at the table, and feel a larger bet than normal has a higher chance of getting called, shoot for it. Only if you arent terribly deep-stacked. However, in general i dont think this is the best play. My goal is to never reveal my holdings with my betting pattern. So i dont overbet hands like 10-10 or J-J. A smart player would notice this. Thus, if I raise, I keep it standard, even if I have aces.

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

It depends on the situation and tourny or live. However, in general, I'm not frightened to play this hand. If I get it down to one villian, I'm looking to get as much out of him ot every street as I can, whatever works with this guy. I might even let him see the river depending on the texture of the flop. I usually try to end this hand on the turn.

Making a big bet hoping to win a few chips and run away from having to play this hand post flop is weak. This hand does not come around very often. Deturmine not to lose all your chips with it post-flop but to make as much as you can. Certainly you have to let it go occasionally. But I feel I do better letting the flop come out. How often do you raise preflop and some dolt calls you with JQ or KQ or AQ and hits his top pair on the flop? It's going to take even the best player a few bets to figure out he's beat and the donks just might call a 3/4 to pot size bet on every street.

The longer you let the hand go the more dangerous it gets and the more cautious you have to get. Your hand is best preflop and with each card put on the board it becomes weaker and weaker. My view in general is to end the hand most of the time on the 4th street bet. Usually by 4th stree there is every kind of draw looking at you. Those draws have slit pupils and forked tongues.

Dave

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

I've actually seen players do this at a few different levels. To me, it's pretty obvious that they are holding aces when they open push pre flop. But, to inexperienced players who have never seen the move before, it may work.

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

The one thing that makes poker a beautiful game is that it is all situational dependent. For instance, how you play your aces is dependent on how the conditions are at the table. Sounds so obvious, but I believe that poker is all about how you understand yourself. For instance, I like to raise 3X the blind when I'm coming into a hand whether it be with suited connectors or pocket aces. If I'm well aware that I'm doing that, I can make an overbet to get some attention from the smarter players. An overbet isn't bad if the conditions are right (i.e how you are playing your big pocket pairs in that moment).

Re: Over-betting Aces a good or bad idea?
 

It depends on you situation (positon, action in front of you, and reads on your opponents) Also I think it depends on whether you're playing in a brick & mortar or online..in my experience people play differently. The big argument for the large overbet is it reduces your competition and your less likely to get drawn out on. However, the object of poker is to win the most CHIPS not the most POTS so there is an argument to make the standard or slightly larger raise and play the hand out.