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-   -   25NL: How's my line? (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=541917)

OSUGreg1983 11-09-2007 04:16 AM

25NL: How\'s my line?
 
Villain is LAG donkey fish 58/24/9 > 105 hands dumping to everyone. I have a good image at 19/13/2.

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: $34
BTN: $24.65
SB: $22.80
Hero (BB): $29.95
UTG: $28.05

Pre-Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $1</font>, CO calls $1, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.75

Flop: ($3.10) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="red">CO bets $2</font>, Hero calls $2, UTG folds

Turn: ($7.10) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $7.50</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $20</font>

I obviously intend calling if he shoves.

mickske 11-09-2007 04:21 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
I'd personally prefer waiting for a better spot to stack this donkey.

OSUGreg1983 11-09-2007 04:23 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'd personally prefer waiting for a better spot to stack this donkey.

[/ QUOTE ]

Overbetting the pot from position is routine for him.

Nick C 11-09-2007 04:34 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd personally prefer waiting for a better spot to stack this donkey.

[/ QUOTE ]

Overbetting the pot from position is routine for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case, I think it's high variance but fine. His aggression numbers are insane for his looseness, and if he'll play any two cards this way, you'll be ahead on the turn more often than not.

Maunzekater 11-09-2007 04:36 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
You may have the best hand here, you may be drawing very slim.
This is high variance play, i prefer waiting for e batter spot too. If he overbets frequently, you will get paid off very well if you hit a strong hand. And against this villain, even a vunerable hand like TPGK is a monster.

OSUGreg1983 11-09-2007 04:38 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
Not that players like him notice stats of others around him, but I justify my move because, a) im confident im ahead most of the time, and b) I have a very solid table image (not that he notices this either)

iheartponeez 11-09-2007 04:40 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
I was sitting for this one, but I don't remember it or the outcome. I think that, while one might say you're likely to be ahead, his insane range/fishy calls means that he might stack off with any T here, and there are quite a few he's liable to be playing (let alone a 4).

Against guys like this, unless I've seen a lot of betting on air, I don't want to go to war with a mediocre hand, like second pair, because they have lots of first pairs in their range and the poor form to call down with very weak first pairs. That said, JJ is probably the nuts here.

Maunzekater 11-09-2007 04:42 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
[ QUOTE ]
That said, AT is probably the nuts here.


[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

iheartponeez 11-09-2007 04:43 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That said, AT is probably the nuts here.


[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Duly noted.

OSUGreg1983 11-09-2007 04:46 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
[ QUOTE ]
You may have the best hand here, you may be drawing very slim.
This is high variance play, i prefer waiting for e batter spot too. If he overbets frequently, you will get paid off very well if you hit a strong hand. And against this villain, even a vunerable hand like TPGK is a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

High variance I agree for the most part, but I feel against these types of players its necessary to do this every once and awhile. One could argue its not a good spot, but I had a very good read and gut feeling I was ahead of his range most of the time.

Flat calling here is a weak play IMO b/c any river card is a scare card for me and I dont want to face a push on that street.

Maunzekater 11-09-2007 04:47 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
Forgot to say you are 100% right about not going to war with 2nd pair. This can be a very expensive lesson, out beloved standard spewtard loves to fastplay his TPNK hands. Let them pay for not knowing what a kicker is and save your money for the time they spike 2pair on later streets.

Nick C 11-09-2007 04:49 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
I should have mentioned that one thing that makes the play close is that you're basically risking $27 to win $15. There aren't many worse hands Villain is likely to call with (aside from flush draws).

Still, as I suggested before, I would probably do what you did. And another option to consider (and in a way it's the more aggressive play) would be to call with the plan of calling again on the river.

Against this guy, I think I prefer both of those options to folding.

OSUGreg1983 11-09-2007 04:53 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
Here's how it played out, I will definitely take all advice into consideration.

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: $34
BTN: $24.65
SB: $22.80
Hero (BB): $29.95
UTG: $28.05

Pre-Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $1</font>, CO calls $1, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.75

Flop: ($3.10) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="red">CO bets $2</font>, Hero calls $2, UTG folds

Turn: ($7.10) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $7.50</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $20</font>, CO folds

Results: $22.10 Pot ($1.05 Rake)
Hero mucked 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and WON $21.05 (+$10.55 NET)

Nick C 11-09-2007 04:55 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Flat calling here is a weak play IMO b/c any river card is a scare card for me and I dont want to face a push on that street.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, though, if your read on Villain is that he'll probably fire again on the river no matter what he has, then I think flat calling is better than checkraising.

The checkraise does not protect your hand against this guy (or at least not enough to make it worth bothering with if Villain will fire again with A9o UI on the river). The checkraise gets value versus a flush draw and worse pairs, but, then again, was this Villain really going to check a bust behind on the river? And if he has XX, there certainly is something to say for letting him continue to bluff, despite the fact that that XX could have 6 outs versus your 88.

OSUGreg1983 11-09-2007 04:58 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flat calling here is a weak play IMO b/c any river card is a scare card for me and I dont want to face a push on that street.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, though, if your read on Villain is that he'll probably fire again on the river no matter what he has, then I think flat calling is better than checkraising.

The checkraise does not protect your hand against this guy (or at least not enough to make it worth bothering with if Villain will fire again with A9o UI on the river). The checkraise gets value versus a flush draw and worse pairs, but, then again, was this Villain really going to check a bust behind on the river? And if he has XX, there certainly is something to say for letting him continue to bluff, despite the fact that that XX could have 6 outs versus your 88.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I flat call and he has 2 non-paired overs he has 6 outs to win. Thus, any non 8 is a scare on the river. I feel protecting my hand is necessary against a possible 6 out draw.

Maunzekater 11-09-2007 05:01 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
[ QUOTE ]
High variance I agree for the most part, but I feel against these types of players its necessary to do this every once and awhile. One could argue its not a good spot, but I had a very good read and gut feeling I was ahead of his range most of the time.

Flat calling here is a weak play IMO b/c any river card is a scare card for me and I dont want to face a push on that street.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to criticize your play in this hand, as it is unlikely for him to have a great hand. He will have a mediocre hand most of the time, just like you.

What i wanted to say is that there are many great spots to stack him where they are drawing very slim. It's so incredible easy to win all their money, it needs only patience. Like poneez said, overpairs or TPTK-like hands are the nuts against spewtards.

OSUGreg1983 11-09-2007 05:02 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
True

Nick C 11-09-2007 05:06 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flat calling here is a weak play IMO b/c any river card is a scare card for me and I dont want to face a push on that street.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, though, if your read on Villain is that he'll probably fire again on the river no matter what he has, then I think flat calling is better than checkraising.

The checkraise does not protect your hand against this guy (or at least not enough to make it worth bothering with if Villain will fire again with A9o UI on the river). The checkraise gets value versus a flush draw and worse pairs, but, then again, was this Villain really going to check a bust behind on the river? And if he has XX, there certainly is something to say for letting him continue to bluff, despite the fact that that XX could have 6 outs versus your 88.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I flat call and he has 2 non-paired overs he has 6 outs to win. Thus, any non 8 is a scare on the river. I feel protecting my hand is necessary against a possible 6 out draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it really depends on Villain's tendencies. I mean, if that turn bet is very likely the last money he's putting in UI with A9o (or if he'll often just make some trivial symbolic river bluff instead of betting big again), then, sure, you should push him off of it now. But if he's going to make a desperation river push (or something close to it) instead, then you're letting him off easy with his 6-outer (a 6-outer is only going to suck out on you on the river about 1 in 7 times).

checktheriver 11-09-2007 06:23 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
If Villain is really taking this line with ~atc, I think flat calling and calling any river is better than shoving. You don't really need to protect that much against a 6-outer as Nick C pointed out. It is also read-dependant but sometimes these maniacs won't valuebet if they hit their TP on the river, and only keep firing with air, which obviously is good for you.

ama0330 11-09-2007 06:31 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, though, if your read on Villain is that he'll probably fire again on the river no matter what he has, then I think flat calling is better than checkraising.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Its pretty much a question of the size of your balls. You can raise the turn and shut down the hand, taking a nice profit, or you can call the turn and let him hang himself on the river - but you'll have an iffy call when a broadway flops.

(fwiw I probably raise the turn [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img])

SDone 11-09-2007 07:53 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, though, if your read on Villain is that he'll probably fire again on the river no matter what he has, then I think flat calling is better than checkraising.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Its pretty much a question of the size of your balls. You can raise the turn and shut down the hand, taking a nice profit, or you can call the turn and let him hang himself on the river - but you'll have an iffy call when a broadway flops.

(fwiw I probably raise the turn [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img])

[/ QUOTE ]


I feel you, every time I let someone hang themselves by calling them down with a pocket pair, they hit on the river.
Although I guess getting them to bluff along the way should be +ev..

genius55 11-09-2007 07:54 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
i like it vs said opponent.

genius55 11-09-2007 07:55 AM

Re: 25NL: How\'s my line?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, though, if your read on Villain is that he'll probably fire again on the river no matter what he has, then I think flat calling is better than checkraising.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Its pretty much a question of the size of your balls. You can raise the turn and shut down the hand, taking a nice profit, or you can call the turn and let him hang himself on the river - but you'll have an iffy call when a broadway flops.

(fwiw I probably raise the turn [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img])

[/ QUOTE ]

this is spot on, i just prefer not to have to soul read on river, so i like op's play.


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