2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

25/50 i think 5 handed 100bb effective. utg may be a little gambly, but he's playing a few tables with full stacks and hasn't done anything retarded yet. 10th hand or so at the table. he prob thinks i am ok/solid reg.

he raises utg to 175 folded to me in bb w A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and i just call.

flop A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (pot 370)

i ck, he bets 285, i call.

turn 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (pot 940)

i ck and he cks behind.

river 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (pot 940)

i bet 660 and he pretty quickly mashes bet pot and raises biggish to 2890 or something...

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

Obviously this sucks, but I would probably call mainly because checking the turn with the Ace of spades seems non-standard.

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

I talk myself into a call, but I expect to lose over 50% of the time.

And you have 3rd nuts, since T8s is possible, but I doubt he raises that UTG.

I agree the turn line is a bit odd if he has the As, but if he has AsXx, he might not want to call a CRAI from a made flush on the turn.

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

id fold pretty quick.

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

yeah sry - i knew it wasnt 2nd nuts when i was in the hand just not worth considering at 100bb. anyway, carry on.

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

def. fold no way is he bluffing/Vbetting light enough for you to be good 1/3 of the time.

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

its not even worth considering bc you could so easily have chk'd the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] twice and the fact that he instapotted it seals the deal.

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

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its not even worth considering bc you could so easily have chk'd the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] twice and the fact that he instapotted it seals the deal.

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Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

yeah i mean the river action and timing itself probably does overrule all else, but in everyone's experience is the type of player i loosely described more likely to ck the turn w Asxx (that he raised utg - so probably pretty good ace) or to bet it?

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

i don't think it's so clear, your bet size gives away a fair amount of information.

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

certainly a fold to me, he´s not capable of making a bluff here since the ace of spades is so much in ur range

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

u should have been alot more aggressive in this hand imo...if u bet the flop and turn and he calls then u can definately put him on aces with the ace of spades if u took a different line u could have made an easier decision

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

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u should have been alot more aggressive in this hand imo...if u bet the flop and turn and he calls then u can definately put him on aces with the ace of spades if u took a different line u could have made an easier decision

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Or he could play it as played, spend less money, and come to the same conclusion.

EDIT: minus the Aces, are you serious?

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

bet 750 on the turn imo

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

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id fold pretty quick.

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end of thread.. wtf

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

yah i folded, but he showed me some retardo (genius?) bluff.

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

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yah i folded, but he showed me some retardo (genius?) bluff.

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i kind of like his bluff, to be honest, kind of a lot actually.

i woudl bet 750 or 800 on the river also, i think there is some difference between that and 660.

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

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i woudl bet 750 or 800 on the river also, i think there is some difference between that and 660.

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I actually agree with this; I think you're inducing with your river bet size, Rob. Not saying I would call necessarily (not saying I wouldn't, either), but I definitely think that your bet sizing changes the dynamic on the river a non-insignificant amount. Bet 800 and you won't have to think twice about folding.

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

nothing but a call.

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

Some said here, that the As is a big part of our range,. Fact is we know that, but does he know this, too? I mean if we fold 2nd nuts here, he is right to shove in this flop!

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

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Obviously this sucks, but I would probably call mainly because checking the turn with the Ace of spades seems non-standard.

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so u call w/ the 8s cause u think hes bluffing? or u call w/ the ks cause he can have worse spades?

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

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Obviously this sucks, but I would probably call mainly because checking the turn with the Ace of spades seems non-standard.

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so u call w/ the 8s cause u think hes bluffing? or u call w/ the ks cause he can have worse spades?

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oh good i didnt have to say it. 8s is same as Ks like.. theres maybe 1% chance hes trying to bluff with a worse spade than a K but higher than an 8.. so i mean he either has As or bluff, and ppl just dont bluff here enough to make calling profitable. and really u HAVE to look at it as Ks = 8s. otherwise you are just being stubborn. good fold, dont sweat it, monkeys be monkeys.

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

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Obviously this sucks, but I would probably call mainly because checking the turn with the Ace of spades seems non-standard.

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so u call w/ the 8s cause u think hes bluffing? or u call w/ the ks cause he can have worse spades?

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+1000

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

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Obviously this sucks, but I would probably call mainly because checking the turn with the Ace of spades seems non-standard.

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so u call w/ the 8s cause u think hes bluffing? or u call w/ the ks cause he can have worse spades?

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oh good i didnt have to say it. 8s is same as Ks like.. theres maybe 1% chance hes trying to bluff with a worse spade than a K but higher than an 8.. so i mean he either has As or bluff, and ppl just dont bluff here enough to make calling profitable. and really u HAVE to look at it as Ks = 8s. otherwise you are just being stubborn. good fold, dont sweat it, monkeys be monkeys.

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i'm usually not one to harp on not being super exploitable, but i do have something to say.

given that we are almost never flatting Ax off with just the A spades, the fact taht frequently (though not always obviously) Ax of spades will CR the flop, lead the turn, or check the river (as well as most of our flatting range of AXs has one of those lower spades on the board). what i'm saying is we almost never have the nuts. he can definitely have the nuts. a TON of his A x hands that chekc behind the turn have the A spades. AK AQ etc type hands with As only would prob check turn to under rep and PC, so he can def rep that.

our 655 bet on the rive rlooks like exactly what it is, a face card spade, which seems infinitely more likely than the A of spades to me, betting mediumish to smallish for value. i'm not saying we induced, but we sure as heck might have, since our river bet goes in line with our previous line of having the face card spade moreso than the A of spades.

i'm not saying this guy is thinking about all this during the hand, because i almost never given unknowns credit for this line of thought even at 25-50, but it just seems so unlikely that we can have the nuts, and completely plausible for him to represent the nuts.

edit- point of my point was to harp on betting 750 or 800 on the river to polarize our range more (even though we really aren't it looks like we are) and if we do bet this much, to think long and hard about calling.

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

i would

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

lookit u being all intelligent. i like it!

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

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Obviously this sucks, but I would probably call mainly because checking the turn with the Ace of spades seems non-standard.

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so u call w/ the 8s cause u think hes bluffing? or u call w/ the ks cause he can have worse spades?

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oh good i didnt have to say it. 8s is same as Ks like.. theres maybe 1% chance hes trying to bluff with a worse spade than a K but higher than an 8.. so i mean he either has As or bluff, and ppl just dont bluff here enough to make calling profitable. and really u HAVE to look at it as Ks = 8s. otherwise you are just being stubborn. good fold, dont sweat it, monkeys be monkeys.

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Just to play devil's advocate, doesn't this mean that you could very very profitably bluff almost every single 4 flush board?

Re: 2nd nuts 4 flush board - can i pay this off?
 

Interesting hand, your check call, check then weak bet river smacks of weakness and invites the bluff on the 4 flush board. In fact, thinking about it I would bet that amount if I had As and wanted to induce the bluff if I thought villian was clever enough.

K high flush v A high flush on 4 flush board. Problem is, if you fold too easily it just presents an almighty bluffing opportunity for your opponents- there's basically just one card in the deck that they are afraid of. It's something I don't have an answer to.

I'm playing this hand more aggressively. Pre flop I would raise- Ako is very strong 5 handed although it does depend how tight your table is, where I play it is v aggro. You're only 100BB deep.