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one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
Stats:
UTG: no stats CO: 64/0/0.79 SB: was kinda loose, no stats I am going to post this hand, action by action (starting on the flop) Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players LeggoPoker Hand History Converter BB: $11.25 UTG: $10 Hero (MP): $14.70 CO: $22.75 BTN: $10.80 SB: $2.65 Pre-Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (MP) <font color="red">UTG raises to $0.40</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.20</font>, CO calls $1.20, BTN folds, SB calls $1.15, BB folds, UTG calls $0.80 Flop: ($4.90) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 Players) SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="blue"> Hero...? </font> I raised preflop for following reasons: -TT is a strong hand -isolate -buying button -control over the pot, i take down the pot with a cbet most of the times What do I do here? |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
Bet $3.50...
because given your opponents apparent looseness and the fact that they haven't exhibited any strength on the flop, this size of bet (~3/4 pot) should take it down or at least draw info from them relatively cheap. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Hope that helps. |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
come on dude, if you give an advice explain and elaborate it and not just tell him what to do next... I hate these kinds of posts
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Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
I call pf for set value.
As played, I c/f. TT is not a strong hand on this board 4way. The pot is too big to bet/fold here. You are slightly ahead/way behind and if you bet and get called/raised you are likely way behind. |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
pf for set value sucks, i already said why i hate it and i think its one of the nittiest things people do
i dont know about checking, since we give our opponents a free card. |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
I would bet here, $3.50-$4. We 3-bet preflop and took control of the hand. It's a pretty big pot already and I can't stand the thought of giving up this pot without at least trying to pick it up. Given OP's reads that SB and CO are loose, they could have anything with a J being only a tiny part of that range and UTG has checked to us so why not bet it and try to pick it up here? c/f just seems awfully weak.
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Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
Raise preflop is fine I guess, but vs an unknown UTG raiser I'd be wairy, but as he flatcalles against 2 earlier flatcallers OOP, i guess he is not holding a monster. The one most likely to hold a slowplayed premium is the CO.
In this particular situation, a c-bet is fine i guess. This is like the best board you can get if you are holding TT. No likely sets there except 88 and maybe JJ (which would be played harder preflop i guess). So just c-bet $3 and see what happens. Check fold line is way to weak and you have shown massive strength preflop by 3betting a UTG raiser. So just continue showing massive strength. If I get called and don't improve @ river ---> Hand is over for me. |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
Although the raise utg is pretty strong I agree with op here isolating and buying position - also helps narrow his range a lot.
With the flop being 4-way I dont think you have nearly enough strength to bet here. The other 2 who came along seem pretty strong (both calling the 3-bet) aswell as utg obv. The 2 checks to you dont mean much as this is pretty standard play for players at NL10 who hit that flop (or have an overpair) in a 4-way..so Im c/folding.. |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
I definately bet ~3/4 for information. You have position on 2/3 opponents. If CO calls I'm slowing down with such a low pfa.
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Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
[ QUOTE ]
I call pf for set value. As played, I c/f. TT is not a strong hand on this board 4way. The pot is too big to bet/fold here. You are slightly ahead/way behind and if you bet and get called/raised you are likely way behind. [/ QUOTE ] Might be the best play IF you called prf 4 setvalue, here I raised to be able to win the pot prf or w/ a cb. As played I auto-contibet : I want to know if I'm ahead or behind, since it's checked to me and no one showed ne strength so far, calling won't be any good. Can't really reduce my hand to hope to spike a T on the turn / river or make a runner runner str8, and folding here is out of the question. $3 should do the job, board is rainbow and not overly coordinated ( me holding TT and therefore blocking quite some str8 possibilities ) and doesn't give the impression I'm too eager to take it down. The mere fact that I bet ( even if contibet ) into a 4way pot shows enough strength on it's own, I wouldn't need to add more weight by the size here. Fold to a raise obviously, if called proceed turn w/ caution... rgz, Mris |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop is fine I guess, but vs an unknown UTG raiser I'd be wairy, but as he flatcalles against 2 earlier flatcallers OOP, i guess he is not holding a monster. The one most likely to hold a slowplayed premium is the CO. In this particular situation, a c-bet is fine i guess. This is like the best board you can get if you are holding TT. No likely sets there except 88 and maybe JJ (which would be played harder preflop i guess). So just c-bet $3 and see what happens. Check fold line is way to weak and you have shown massive strength preflop by 3betting a UTG raiser. So just continue showing massive strength. If I get called and don't improve @ river ---> Hand is over for me. [/ QUOTE ] Even though the CO/SB are apparently quite loose, you really think they are calling the 3-bet to an utg here, which as you said shows big strength, without strong/premium hands (or given its NL10 clunkier stuff like JQ, KJ)?? I dont see how betting into a big 4-way pot without any really strength/outs can be +EV here.. |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I call pf for set value. As played, I c/f. TT is not a strong hand on this board 4way. The pot is too big to bet/fold here. You are slightly ahead/way behind and if you bet and get called/raised you are likely way behind. [/ QUOTE ] Might be the best play IF you called prf 4 setvalue, here I raised to be able to win the pot prf or w/ a cb. As played I auto-contibet : I want to know if I'm ahead or behind, since it's checked to me and no one showed ne strength so far, calling won't be any good. Can't really reduce my hand to hope to spike a T on the turn / river or make a runner runner str8, and folding here is out of the question. $3 should do the job, board is rainbow and not overly coordinated ( me holding TT and therefore blocking quite some str8 possibilities ) and doesn't give the impression I'm too eager to take it down. The mere fact that I bet ( even if contibet ) into a 4way pot shows enough strength on it's own, I wouldn't need to add more weight by the size here. Fold to a raise obviously, if called proceed turn w/ caution... rgz, Mris [/ QUOTE ] I dont agree that noone has shown strength so far, UTG raise is strong and the calls of a 3-bet to utg raiser also implies strength.. I really dont think this line works here at 10NL. Players are calling with a wide range at this level and your pretty much shutting down on the turn if your called and dont spike a T. Putting a large bet into a 4-way pot like this without bigger strength or draws just isnt gonna be +EV..your just getting called/raised too many times here and even if its by a worse hand you are shutting down.. |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
Grunch.
Board is very dry. There is only one good straight draw. While it's tough to do, I think you can still lead for $4 or so. UTG probably has PP < JJ which is an easy fold for him when you fire into 3 players. His other holdings are likely AK, AQ, AJs, KQs all of which missed except for AJ. If he's holding anything else, he missed. Your super loose player has such a wide range that he probably missed anything he's going to stick around with. You are in a re-raised pot so he'll probably give you credit for a bigger hand. He's also the type of player that doesn't like calling big bets on these types of boards. He'll call with draws, but without any draws and only an underpair with A kicker and such, I think he folds a lot in the RR pot unless he holds a naked J, set, or J8. Your other foe probably is in a similar boat, and folds a lot on this board without the same holdings. If you get a call, you can pretty much figure out exactly what your opponent has and play accordingly when you spike your ten on the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
I bet about 3.25 and am done with the hand after that. I wouldnt bet much more than that as youre approaching the point where you commit yourself. I dont like checking here because obviously any A/K/Q is just terrible for you. Plus, a bet here could get called by say 99 or 77 even and since youre in position, you can then check the turn and ideally get to show down. If an overcard comes off on the turn, youre not getting any value from those lower pairs.
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Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
Everyone who's saying leading for 3.5-4$ ?
why so much? what about a 1/2 pot bet? Doesnt it accomplish it the same? just asking |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
I was honestly just thinking about 1/2 pot but the problem is that it looks weak. Youre asking to get played back at for such a smaller bet usually.
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Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
[ QUOTE ]
I was honestly just thinking about 1/2 pot but the problem is that it looks weak. Youre asking to get played back at for such a smaller bet usually. [/ QUOTE ] they have to push if they wanna play back [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
Thats true, I guess there is some merit to 1/2 pot, I originally said 3.25 so there was no way I would advocate 4 here anyway.
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Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
[ QUOTE ]
Everyone who's saying leading for 3.5-4$ ? why so much? what about a 1/2 pot bet? Doesnt it accomplish it the same? just asking [/ QUOTE ] If I had an over-pair or set, I'd lead out here for at least $4.00. I've represented a big pair, and if I'm going to stick a bet out there, I'm going to continue to represent a big pair. A 1/2 pot bet, IMO looks like I missed with AK or I'm fearful of something. An observant player who saw how I really played AA/KK/QQ/AJ or a set would raise me off my hand with ATC if I made that bet (provided the other players folded). Finally, it is harder to raise a $4 bet (they'd have to raise to ($10-$14) without a hand or a big draw. There are no big draws. So if I am raised, I know I'm facing a legitimate hand that beats me (J minimum), and it is easier to throw the hand away. If I check and get bet into on a blank turn, where am I? Do I call? Do I raise? Is it 99 taking a stab at the pot or a J? I don't want to ask those questions on the turn. Let's define some hands right now on the flop (and keep my aggressive image). |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
im betting $3.25-$3.50 and folding to a CO shove and maybe folding to an UTG shove although id probably be able to talk myself into a call of that
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Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
The problem is, that we are playing NL10, and they dont have 10$ behind, but 6$.
The 1/2pot bet might look weak, i agree, but doesnt 4$ just turn my hand into a bluff? I mean, i doubt 77 is pushing here, probably 99 would fold. 1/2pot invites all of those hands. I think players are not playing back at those levels, especially if they have to commit theirselves to a pot. I might be wrong, but just "they'll play back at you with a 1/2pot" wont change my mind. I think I'd bet with AA 2/3pot here, so this might be the best bet. |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
ive seen people push back with underpairs and overcards when they are getting shortstacked and facing a bet like this which is why i think around $3.50 is a good bet... the only hand you have to worry about flat calling or shoving on you is the CO... i feel really good about my hand against the other 2 villains
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Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
Flatting pf leaves value on the table imo. Betting this flop would be pretty standard
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Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
I like pre-flop play.
3/4 to Pot bet. This avoids giving a free card to the other players who may have overcards which is most likely. It also lets you find out where you stand. If re-raised you should fold. With 3 players, a set or A-J/K-J are quite likely (i don't think opponents have any overpairs except maybe JJ which is now a set.) |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
I like the pre-flop raise, only time I might flat is if I have a specific read that UTG's raising range is very tight.
I would c-bet here, probably 3.25, and fold to a shove. It's kind of a sick spot but people call 3-bets with all kinds of overcards that missed here, in my experience. If you get called you are probably beat, but I think you take down the pot often enough to make a bet +EV. I think with 4 players in a 3-bet pot everyone will be playing pretty straightforwardly, so I'm not worried that a smaller bet is getting played back at lightly without a read. |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
many players at these levels wont be able to tell the difference between a 1/2 and 2/3 or 3/4 pot bet anyway... Fire away. Only the most observant will be able to tell that this is more of a feeler bet than a value bet with AA
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Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
Ok, now the turn!
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players LeggoPoker Hand History Converter BB: $11.25 UTG: $10 Hero (MP): $14.70 CO: $22.75 BTN: $10.80 SB: $2.65 Pre-Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (MP) <font color="red">UTG raises to $0.40</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.20</font>, CO calls $1.20, BTN folds, SB calls $1.15, BB folds, UTG calls $0.80 Flop: ($4.90) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 Players) SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $2.25</font>, CO calls $2.25, SB calls $1.45 and is All-In, UTG folds Turn: ($10.85) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In) <font color="blue">Hero...?</font> What's our plan? The shortstacked called, as i figured he would. The CO called, the only one that has position on us. What's my plan? |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
if there is a reasonable chance to get CO out of this pot, push, else c/f.
7c as a turn card is bad, since an OP/JJ would bet big, and if I don't, I'll face a bet from CO with the option to either fold or push w/ even less FE, since a mere call commits me to the pot and I'll be totally in the dark at the river - as I'd find myself if the turn is checked through and I don't catch a miracle T or 9 on the river. So, I have $11 left and if I'd try to take another stab at the pot, I had to make a credible bet of min $7, so I'd rather prefer pushing. TT+GS doesn't look so strong and I have not invested that much so far, so I'd c/f here. rgz, Mris |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
Check and fold to a bet. CO is passive, so I think there's a good chance that he will check-down anything you actually beat and he is neither betting worse or folding better hands here, which I think makes this a clear c/f.
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Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
why are we not c/f'ing the flop? the flop is 4-way and that jack has a high chance of hitting someone else's range (QJ, KJ, AJ, TJ)
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Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
[ QUOTE ]
This is like the best board you can get if you are holding TT. [/ QUOTE ] 10[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] vs. 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] but thats just IMO [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
At the turn it's easy. Check/fold. He is ultra-passive, isn't going to bet anything you beat here, and you get to see his hand regardless.
Even the worst players know they have to show their hand down and tend not to bluff at these pots (on these boards). Your hand still has showdown value. Check and fold. |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
[ QUOTE ]
why are we not c/f'ing the flop? the flop is 4-way and that jack has a high chance of hitting someone else's range (QJ, KJ, AJ, TJ) [/ QUOTE ] we bet to protect our hand from overcards |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
I like the way you played pf, but you have to bet more on the flop, make it $3.90 since you're up against 3 players. I also disagree that nobody else has shown strength here. In my experience at this limit, UTG's range could still be JJ, QQ, KK. Many players dont 3 or 4 bet preflop nomatter what they have at this limit. I dont understand why but they just dont. Since UTG folds on the flop we can eliminate that range.
CO/SB has now called you so the very weakest hand in CO/SB's range is 910, but you already see 2 tens so thats unlikely. You have to give CO/SB credit for AJ/KJ/QJ at this point, or possibly slow playing a set. Loose passive players get the same hands as we do in the LR, and I don't see a calling station continuing with weak holdings once the pot has built to this size. |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
CO called, SB called, too, but is allin, and btw i dont care about him, he probably has a smaller PP.
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Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
I missed that the SB is all in sorry. What I said still holds true for the CO IMO. No prize for second place so you have to make sure you have the BEST hand out of ALL players involved in the hand. At some point you have to put people on a hand and either continue to bet or give up and c/f. Continuing to bet, especially after the open ender hits is wreckless IMO. If he wants to outplay you here there's not much you can do about it. Since SB is allin you will at least get to see the showdown.
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Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
Ok, I think checking was pretty standard, i was going to fold to a bet. But CO decided not to bet and we see another card.
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players LeggoPoker Hand History Converter BB: $11.25 UTG: $10 Hero (MP): $14.70 CO: $22.75 BTN: $10.80 SB: $2.65 Pre-Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (MP) <font color="red">UTG raises to $0.40</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.20</font>, CO calls $1.20, BTN folds, SB calls $1.15, BB folds, UTG calls $0.80 Flop: ($4.90) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 Players) SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $2.25</font>, CO calls $2.25, SB calls $1.45 and is All-In, UTG folds Turn: ($10.85) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In) Hero checks, CO checks River: ($10.85) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In) <font color="blue"> Hero...? </font> |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
[ QUOTE ]
The problem is, that we are playing NL10, and they dont have 10$ behind, but 6$. The 1/2pot bet might look weak, i agree, but doesnt 4$ just turn my hand into a bluff? I mean, i doubt 77 is pushing here, probably 99 would fold. 1/2pot invites all of those hands. I think players are not playing back at those levels, especially if they have to commit theirselves to a pot. I might be wrong, but just "they'll play back at you with a 1/2pot" wont change my mind. I think I'd bet with AA 2/3pot here, so this might be the best bet. [/ QUOTE ] You have 1262 posts, still playing 10NL. Perhaps there is a deeper problem here. No disrespect intended, but maybe you aren't taking your learning of poker as seriously as you need to be. I see you post and respond quite often, but are you just cram and flushing all of this? I also think this is evident by the fact that you posted a question playing 99 OOP and immediately posted another spot with 99 OOP like you hadn't even been thinking about the first hand you posted and how to improve upon your play. Perhaps simply folding the second 99 after you just lost with it (assuming you lost, most people dont post if they won buncho scrilla unless its in BBV) from OOP and taking time to analyze b/f you go straight into practice. Are you a member of any training sites? If not I would strongly recommend it. |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
[ QUOTE ]
River: ($10.85) Q (3 Players - 1 is All-In) Hero...? [/ QUOTE ] Against this villain I am somewhat tempted to try a small blocking bet (like $2), both because he is not likely to ever bluff raise, and because after his turn check it is at least possible you could get some value from a smaller pocket pair that wasn't willing to give it up to your smallish flop bet. Against a better or more aggressive opponent I would never take this line but here it might be better than checking since you can probably set the bet size to get to showdown. If you check, I just can't see calling a larger bet. [ QUOTE ] You have 1262 posts, still playing 10NL. Perhaps there is a deeper problem here. [/ QUOTE ] This is an obvious conclusion to reach, but it's also somewhat presumptious (although it may still be true.) As an example, I am a recreational player who plays as many hands in a month as many 50nl players play in a day or two. I can post from work, but not play, so my (postcount:stakes) ratio might look like this soon enough. I could have afforded to start higher but I chose to deposit $20 on PS and try to work my way up. I only just started playing 10nl (after 2 and 5nl) and given how little I play I might be there for months, although I will try to move up. (Variance: cashing out $100 to go towards property tax bill, so it might be a while). Anyway, just food for thought. |
Re: one of the weirdest hands i\'ve played in a while
I think I just c/f river too. He'll most likely check behind you if you've got him beaten, I can't really see why he'd choose to bluff the river, but not the turn. Even if he bets, there are so many hands that beat us (the Qs is one of the worst cards that could have come, along with an Ac or the other J's.)
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