Bluff turn three bet
 

Villian is 40/27/1.7 and likes to make moves. Before raising, villian paused for a spell. What do you think of this?

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (5 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>

Re: Bluff turn three bet
 

At first glance it seems like spew, however, I think this is a draw the majority of the time so as long as you plan on firing river I suppose I don't hate it.

Re: Bluff turn three bet
 

i don't hate it. i'm not sure if you need to bluff the river, since if the villain is on a draw you win anyway when he misses and he gets to see how "spazzy" you are. on the other hand, a river bet might fold some weak made hands (though villain should have c/r with them on the flop so it's hard to say how much we need to discount them).

i also think there's merit in a turn value-check here given that the villain is bluffy. your turn bet will not fold many better hands.

Re: Bluff turn three bet
 

this hand makes me sick on so many levels
whats the deal with people wanting
to turn sdable hands into bluffs

id give you props for calling down
barring a 7, 9, or T on the river

exactly what hands in your range would you play this way

the answer is zero

you gain more value if he has air
by letting him fire again on the river

any valueraise youd might make should wait for the river

such as if you did actually have a J here
which will be such a small percentt of the time
a J makes up such a small part of your pfr ranging

youre better off waiting to the river to r/c

a hand like 99, TT, QQ, KK, AA, A8, K8
would be better off r/f this river
if you want to maximize value

time to go clean up cause i just puked all over myself

edit: brassmonkeys a friend im encouraged to berate him [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Bluff turn three bet
 

can you spell out your reasoning here? Cuz it just doesn't make sense to me. sometimes these lags will cap bigboy draws here. they'll call down any pair and most a-hi. hell i think i'd call down any pair and most a-hi if i decided to get weird and play it like this.

Re: Bluff turn three bet
 

I'd just check behind the turn against this dude. You probably have no folding equity against a better hand, I'm not gonna feel comfortable folding to a turn check/raise nor putting in 3 bets from the turn.

Re: Bluff turn three bet
 

while i agree that this move certainly shouldn't be your default play, i don't see why we can't make it once in a while agaisnt observant villains. if you always 3-bet only with your monsters, aren't you becoming too easy to play against? if you've been really honest so far i don't see why even a lag won't be willing to fold some better hands. yes, theoretically you do lose some value when the villain caps with a draw, but i see that line extremely rarely (frankly, i don't even remember when was the last time i saw it). most of the time, he'll call with his draw and lose the showdown when it doesn't come in, see your KQ and always pay you off in the future.

Re: Bluff turn three bet
 

maybe it's because i've been playing higher lately, because this 3-bet on the turn is a fsdr or a draw fairly often. 40/27 types in my games usually adjust pretty well and will semi-bluff cap more and have more made hands in their c/r'ing range to begin with. By made hand I mean 44 or A9 or whatever. And they usually make the crying call with those iirc.

Re: Bluff turn three bet
 

why 3b any hand here

hes likely to fire again with his missed draws

if we did have a monster here such as 88 or 66

which we wont have all that often here

its much better for balancing purposes
waiting til the river to throw in a raise

besides J8 and JJ theres really no hand we should
feel comfortable putting the seventh bet in

but we dont mind putting in 6 bets

assuming we have something like 66 or 88 here

like if the action went on the river
he bets, we raise, he 3bs, we cap

we like our hand much more

than if the turn action went we 3b he caps
then on the river he bets, we raise, he 3bs

after showing so much strength and our opponent with
a lone jack hes unlikely to do anything but b/c

very rarely will an opponent be so nutty to cap
this turn with a strong draw which is the only way

we can extract more value out of this guy
than by waiting til the river to throw in a raise

Re: Bluff turn three bet
 

basically on the turn and the river

J8 and JJ are the only hands wed like to put 8 bets in with

88 and 66 are the only hands wed like to put 6 bets in with

Jx is the only hand wed like to put 5 bets in with

AA, KK, QQ, TT, 99, A8, K8
are the only hands wed like to put 4 bets in with

Ahi, Khi, and to a lesser degree Qhi
also a 6 and pps 77, 55, 44, 33, 22
are the only hands wed like to put 3 bets in with

Re: Bluff turn three bet
 

without debating the merits of 3betting with your monsters vs waiting till the river, the villain certainly doesn't know that you will be waiting till the river with your monsters. at $3/$6 people put in action on the turn with monsters much more often than they wait till the river without thinking too much about it. so even if you are right that's not really relevant for the current hand.

also, i have no doubt that 3betting or capping with a draw happens all the time in higher stakes games, but this is $3/$6, which plays quite a bit differently.

Re: Bluff turn three bet
 

[ QUOTE ]

also, i have no doubt that 3betting or capping with a draw happens all the time in higher stakes games, but this is $3/$6, which plays quite a bit differently.

[/ QUOTE ]

even more reason to not 3b this turn since it is $3/6

Re: Bluff turn three bet
 

I don't try and out-LAG LAGs. I check behind here and call most rivers. If I bet the turn it's because I think I can fold (not likely against a guy like this) or I expect him to bluff enough that I can call down and have him spew (which you would need a read beyond stats for.)

Re: Bluff turn three bet
 

all in all this is a bad spot to bluff
since our KQ has showdown value

you want to pick better spots
with hands with no showdown value

like this for example

folds to HERO in CO, HERO raises 7c8c
button folds, sb folds, bb calls

flop is 5 6 Th

bb checks, HERO bets, bb raises, HERO calls

turn Kh

bb bets, HERO raises

we are at least putting in one bet regardless while
drawing to our straight or trying to pair our 7 or an 8

for one more bet we have FE given our pf, flop play
it follows the story that we can have a K here

it also buys us 8 more bluff outs on the river
if another heart rolls off because we are saying
that on the turn we are either raising with a pair

or making a semibluff raise with a flushdraw

so now we have 16 potential winning cards for our hand

the 8 that make a straight and the 8 flush cards

our hand has no showdown value so
its a reasonable spot to get tricky

Re: Bluff turn three bet
 

I could be convinced this isn't spew, but at the same time, by default, I think it is. What are this players showdown numbers? If he's a calling station, he'll look you up here often, because you either have a J or total air. He knows you probably don't have an overpair since you just 3-bet and are probably pretty tight.

So given your hand range right now is pretty much the nuts or nothing, I don't like it. However, if he's the type of opponent who might think "wow, he just 3-bet, he probably has me beat" then I think it's ok every now and again.

But again, I would need to be convinced that this is correct and not spew.

Re: Bluff turn three bet
 

I think check turn and call most rivers is the best play. If a turn c/r is going to put me in a gross spot, id rather see showdown for 1 bb than put in 3 as you did here. Id also rather not get c/red off of 6 outs.

EDIT: this sounds like the kind of guy that will bluff a lot of rivers when you check, making a turn check look even better.

Re: Bluff turn three bet
 

If you bet, you have to fold. You have KING HIGH bro. True, a normal player would c/r the flop with a pair, but this dude is not normal. True, this will often be some sort of semi-bluff with a picked up heart draw or T9, but I don't think you have a +ev calldown. He could also be 'bluffing' with A hi for all you know.

Checking behind is also ok, but I would only call non T/9/7 rivers if I do.

Anyway, I would b/f the turn. If a lag pushes you off KING HIGH with a worse hand, big [censored] deal, next hand.

Re: Bluff turn three bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you bet, you have to fold. You have KING HIGH bro. True, a normal player would c/r the flop with a pair, but this dude is not normal. True, this will often be some sort of semi-bluff with a picked up heart draw or T9, but I don't think you have a +ev calldown. He could also be 'bluffing' with A hi for all you know.

Checking behind is also ok, but I would only call non T/9/7 rivers if I do.

Anyway, I would b/f the turn. If a lag pushes you off KING HIGH with a worse hand, big [censored] deal, next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah when i do stuff like this and review my session later... i can usually tell where a few BB's went. Worse thing is now i soooo don't want to showdown.