PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

Poker Stars, $200 + $15 NL Hold'em Tournament, 150/300 Blinds, 5 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

BTN: 3,475
SB: 686
Hero (BB): 2,273
UTG: 3,611
CO: 3,455

Pre-Flop: (575) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
3 folds, SB calls 150, Hero checks

Flop: (725) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets 361 and is All-In</font>, Hero ?

Re: PCA Step 5 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

How the f don't you stick it in pre?

Re: PCA Step 5 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

Ehh I would just fold, you are behind a ton of hands that aren't even paired, not to mention infinite draws that he could have. I don't see a reason to waste 350 chips even if it is a likely stop-n-go.

Re: PCA Step 5 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

I'd fold with no heart. Hard to imagine he has much of hand. Definitely looks like a stop n go. But if he has a h, ur equity isn't that good.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

shove pre as mentioned, but fold as played.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

I'm calling without much thought. I'm guessing he does this ghey stop n go with enough suited connectors and random hands to make this a call.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

i dont do SNGs, but im pretty sure he does this with awful awful hands, all of which we are ahead of PF. If he had top 50% of hands, he'd get them all in pre.

So just get it in pre.

Now fold.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

tahts like the only flop you have to fold against that move by him.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

Vs a random hand we have 27% equity. Take out the premiums and I'm guessing we've got enough equity to make the call.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

yeah i dunno shoving pf seems best to me because there are just going to be wayyyy too many flops that you cant get away from ur hand with (except this one so fold as played)

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

checking preflop should be best with the idea of folding whenever you don't have enough equity against a random hand on the flop. Of course this isn't easy to calculate in the heat of the moment but should almost certainly be the best play.

The correct play here is to fold because you are clearly -EV against a random hand. By checking preflop you gave yourself an extra option to avoid a -EV spot, that you wouldn't have if you simply pushed. In return you gave up absolutely nothing.

So for all those who say "just push preflop" I believe that in the strictly theoretical sense, and based on the fact that bigjoe is pushing pretty much every flop, they are just wrong. However pushing preflop is probably better from a practical standpoint.

This concept works better with really weak hands like 83o and puts both players in a situation where they can make mutually beneficial plays. You are happy that he doesn't push and lets you see a flop, he is very happy when you fold, even if your equity against his range is negative, because his survival is more important than the few extra chips he gains.

Forgive me I don't know precise prize structure, so if there is some extra benefit that goes to you for knocking him out, then the above may be a bit faulty. But the concept I'm pretty sure is correct. Basically his play is unexploitable and he should be allowed to win a pot uncontested here and there. It will be rare but it should happen sometimes, even with best play by you.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

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checking preflop should be best with the idea of folding whenever you don't have enough equity against a random hand on the flop. Of course this isn't easy to calculate in the heat of the moment but should almost certainly be the best play.

The correct play here is to fold because you are clearly -EV against a random hand. By checking preflop you gave yourself an extra option to avoid a -EV spot, that you wouldn't have if you simply pushed. In return you gave up absolutely nothing.

So for all those who say "just push preflop" I believe that in the strictly theoretical sense, and based on the fact that bigjoe is pushing pretty much every flop, they are just wrong. However pushing preflop is probably better from a practical standpoint.

This concept works better with really weak hands like 83o and puts both players in a situation where they can make mutually beneficial plays. You are happy that he doesn't push and lets you see a flop, he is very happy when you fold, even if your equity against his range is negative, because his survival is more important than the few extra chips he gains.

Forgive me I don't know precise prize structure, so if there is some extra benefit that goes to you for knocking him out, then the above may be a bit faulty. But the concept I'm pretty sure is correct. Basically his play is unexploitable and he should be allowed to win a pot uncontested here and there. It will be rare but it should happen sometimes, even with best play by you.

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We don't have enough equity vs a random hand but does bigjoe play every hand like this? I don't know how he plays top hands but I doubt he's stopping and going with them.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

I dunno but he might. Because for all but the very best hands you want your opponent to fold instead of to race. Those hands won't make that big a dent in this spot, the equity still won't be there I think.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

In the moment it may throw you off esp. if you're not playing many SNGs, but against a good player who knows you're a good player, not shoving PF with J9 and then folding to a push is terrible. Even on that bad board (and I say "bad" b/c of the 3 and 4 as much as the hearts) my guess is you have plenty of equity to call getting close to 3:1. I'd be surprised if he had a card higher than a ten, though it makes sense to do it with some stronger hands for the heck of it since a good player is probably going to call your complete-push too...

...unless you have like 62o or something, if you were going to call a push, it's fine to just shove PF. A good player is folding (pre-flop or postflop) after completing here about 0% of the time, why encourage them (and others watching) to make future foolio plays against you?

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

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checking preflop should be best with the idea of folding whenever you don't have enough equity against a random hand on the flop. Of course this isn't easy to calculate in the heat of the moment but should almost certainly be the best play.

The correct play here is to fold because you are clearly -EV against a random hand. By checking preflop you gave yourself an extra option to avoid a -EV spot, that you wouldn't have if you simply pushed. In return you gave up absolutely nothing.

So for all those who say "just push preflop" I believe that in the strictly theoretical sense, and based on the fact that bigjoe is pushing pretty much every flop, they are just wrong. However pushing preflop is probably better from a practical standpoint.

This concept works better with really weak hands like 83o and puts both players in a situation where they can make mutually beneficial plays. You are happy that he doesn't push and lets you see a flop, he is very happy when you fold, even if your equity against his range is negative, because his survival is more important than the few extra chips he gains.

Forgive me I don't know precise prize structure, so if there is some extra benefit that goes to you for knocking him out, then the above may be a bit faulty. But the concept I'm pretty sure is correct. Basically his play is unexploitable and he should be allowed to win a pot uncontested here and there. It will be rare but it should happen sometimes, even with best play by you.

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Curtains, with all due respect, tell Gigabet to get off your account. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

I can't image folding here. It's just a stop n go.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

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I can't image folding here. It's just a stop n go.

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yea but with most stop n gos you have pot odds on the flop. here you might not.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

$EV_win = $399.6
$EV_lose = $261.9
$EV_fold = $298.1

So you need at least 26.3% pot equity, which you've got against a random hand.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

Sexy hand.

Horrible board, but at least the 2 lower cards are 4 &amp; a 3, so our equity should be(and is) enough vs a lot of hands.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

I think he's limping with trash here, I think he pushes stronger hands. That said, I definitely push pf because I don't want 95o making me fold on a flop like this.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

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I think he's limping with trash here, I think he pushes stronger hands. That said, I definitely push pf because I don't want 95o making me fold on a flop like this.

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Yeah this is pretty much what I was going to say, if we have 62 or something Id be more inclined to check and be willing to fold to a bad board when we dont have equity, J9 though is doing very well vs his range pre and I dont want to see a board like this and either fold or have to make a really thin call

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

coolest sng hand + replies i've seen in awhile. i probably call because well, i like calling.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

When I read this hand and the first few replies my immediate instinct was to write a few quick lines to the 'just push pf' crowd about how shoving your worst hands here is almost certaintly not correct as long as you can play near perfectly post flop.

Curtains did an awesome job of explaining what I wanted to say though so just read that for my thoughts. I think J-9 is a call here though?

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

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I think he's limping with trash here, I think he pushes stronger hands. That said, I definitely push pf because I don't want 95o making me fold on a flop like this.

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dont you see how this is kinda dumb though? Nobody is *making* you fold, just make the right decision. If you are going to be making bad folds a bunch then yeah you should stick it in but that's not really the point.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

If J9 is a call here, then what flops are you folding? And how can shoving pf when you're a favorite be worse than checking and folding any flop when you know he's pushing 100% of the time and it's extremely likely he has a worse starting hand?

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

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I think he's limping with trash here, I think he pushes stronger hands. That said, I definitely push pf because I don't want 95o making me fold on a flop like this.

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dont you see how this is kinda dumb though? Nobody is *making* you fold, just make the right decision. If you are going to be making bad folds a bunch then yeah you should stick it in but that's not really the point.

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In a vacuum with this chipstack it will always be very +ev to get it in preflop regardless of our hand, Most of the times we miss and still have to call we're lowering our equity we had from preflop, and the times we fold we passed up our preflop edge to do it.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

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If J9 is a call here, then what flops are you folding? And how can shoving pf when you're a favorite be worse than checking and folding any flop when you know he's pushing 100% of the time and it's extremely likely he has a worse starting hand?

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yea its a bad example because J9 is too good. it works better if hero has like 86o here. then we are only 19% vs atc

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

Another thing is, I don't think it's fair to assign Big Joe a random hand here. I think it should be heavily weighted towards hands in the lower spectrum.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

Probably J9 is too strong, makes more sense with weaker hands like T3o etc. Basically you lose nothing by not pushing preflop, and can gain a little bit postflop if you make perfect folds against his range. Of course in the heat of the moment it's hard to do so, but theoretically it's certainly correct to not push with some of the weaker hands, and to even fold postflop in some rare situations.

That being said, you won't lose much if you never fold this type of spot.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

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In the moment it may throw you off esp. if you're not playing many SNGs, but against a good player who knows you're a good player, not shoving PF with J9 and then folding to a push is terrible. Even on that bad board (and I say "bad" b/c of the 3 and 4 as much as the hearts) my guess is you have plenty of equity to call getting close to 3:1. I'd be surprised if he had a card higher than a ten, though it makes sense to do it with some stronger hands for the heck of it since a good player is probably going to call your complete-push too...

...unless you have like 62o or something, if you were going to call a push, it's fine to just shove PF. A good player is folding (pre-flop or postflop) after completing here about 0% of the time, why encourage them (and others watching) to make future foolio plays against you?

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I suspect that the SB should stop and go with 100% of their range for comprehensiveness reasons. In return the BB should push PF only with hands where there is almost no chance of a flop in which they cannot call an allin from the SB against any 2 cards. Also the SB should of course push the flop 100% of the time.

The point is that the SB is giving the BB a free chance to avoid a -EV spot. Depending on the BB's hand, they may want to take this option. The cool thing about it from the SB's perspective is that it helps the SB to simply give the BB a favorable option. Usually in poker it never makes sense to give your opponent a clear option to avoid losing EV, however in these types of cases it does. It's like collusion somehow! I find it very beautiful!!!!!!!

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

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Another thing is, I don't think it's fair to assign Big Joe a random hand here. I think it should be heavily weighted towards hands in the lower spectrum.

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Yeah, in reality I think it's closer to 35-40% equity here on the flop against villan's true range. It'd probably be a better problem if you were against some random who's thinking you have little/no insight into (instead of someone who plays a bazillion SNGs/year) - then where do the check PF &amp; fold flop thresholds lie?

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

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In the moment it may throw you off esp. if you're not playing many SNGs, but against a good player who knows you're a good player, not shoving PF with J9 and then folding to a push is terrible. Even on that bad board (and I say "bad" b/c of the 3 and 4 as much as the hearts) my guess is you have plenty of equity to call getting close to 3:1. I'd be surprised if he had a card higher than a ten, though it makes sense to do it with some stronger hands for the heck of it since a good player is probably going to call your complete-push too...

...unless you have like 62o or something, if you were going to call a push, it's fine to just shove PF. A good player is folding (pre-flop or postflop) after completing here about 0% of the time, why encourage them (and others watching) to make future foolio plays against you?

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I suspect that the SB should stop and go with 100% of their range for comprehensiveness reasons. In return the BB should push PF only with hands where there is almost no chance of a flop in which they cannot call an allin from the SB against any 2 cards. Also the SB should of course push the flop 100% of the time.

The point is that the SB is giving the BB a free chance to avoid a -EV spot. Depending on the BB's hand, they may want to take this option. The cool thing about it from the SB's perspective is that it helps the SB to simply give the BB a favorable option. Usually in poker it never makes sense to give your opponent a clear option to avoid losing EV, however in these types of cases it does. It's like collusion somehow! I find it very beautiful!!!!!!!

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Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I'm biased here because IME the stop n' go narrows said villan's range downward (as it does most good players) - it's a more interesting problem without that fact/assumption.

Edit: Joey, time to haze people and start stop n'going with 100% range here...

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

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If J9 is a call here, then what flops are you folding? And how can shoving pf when you're a favorite be worse than checking and folding any flop when you know he's pushing 100% of the time and it's extremely likely he has a worse starting hand?

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I was just thinking this. Against an unknown I think a preflop check is standard because he is more likely to check fold preflop than he is to limp fold preflop. Barring timing out or misclicking Joey is never folding postflop. Basically if I check back preflop it is so I can correctly fold some flops when I gain more information. The problem is I have no idea what Joey's range so I don't know what flops I should be folding if I can fold any of them. There are certain hands where I would need to call on any flop probably any pair and any ace high hand maybe even wider. Those hands are more or less irrelevant. Presumably I should be checking back every hand I can correctly fold at least one flop on.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

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If J9 is a call here, then what flops are you folding? And how can shoving pf when you're a favorite be worse than checking and folding any flop when you know he's pushing 100% of the time and it's extremely likely he has a worse starting hand?

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I was just thinking this. Against an unknown I think a preflop check is standard because he is more likely to check fold preflop than he is to limp fold preflop. Barring timing out or misclicking Joey is never folding postflop. Basically if I check back preflop it is so I can correctly fold some flops when I gain more information. The problem is I have no idea what Joey's range so I don't know what flops I should be folding if I can fold any of them. There are certain hands where I would need to call on any flop probably any pair and any ace high hand maybe even wider. Those hands are more or less irrelevant. Presumably I should be checking back every hand I can correctly fold at least one flop on.

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correct, I think you said it better than me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

Does Joey have a 100% range here? Well, I've seen him do this with KK, so I think he does. In which case, the equity swings against calling and a fold is good.

This makes me think that this shortstack stop n go move is only going to be long term profitable if it is done with 100%. Am I wrong?

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

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Does Joey have a 100% range here? Well, I've seen him do this with KK, so I think he does. In which case, the equity swings against calling and a fold is good.

This makes me think that this shortstack stop n go move is only going to be long term profitable if it is done with 100%. Am I wrong?

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I'm sure he does it with big hands in order to improve his fold equity for his range (and its not a bad play). I'm guessing some flops he could consider check folding. I'm also guessing its possibly better to push certain hands preflop, I'm not sure. I think this is an interesting spot...but im not so good with the analysis.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

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Does Joey have a 100% range here? Well, I've seen him do this with KK, so I think he does. In which case, the equity swings against calling and a fold is good.

This makes me think that this shortstack stop n go move is only going to be long term profitable if it is done with 100%. Am I wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure he does it with big hands in order to improve his fold equity for his range (and its not a bad play). I'm guessing some flops he could consider check folding. I'm also guessing its possibly better to push certain hands preflop, I'm not sure. I think this is an interesting spot...but im not so good with the analysis.

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Anytime you push a strong hand preflop, it lowers your EV when you stop and go. Of course I'm talking in purely game theory terms.

Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

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tahts like the only flop you have to fold against that move by him.

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^
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Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe
 

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coolest sng hand + replies i've seen in awhile. i probably call because well, i like calling.

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What he said. When somebody's nth leveling, I just go back to the first level.

If bigjoe did this with KK or whatever and potentially let me get away from 82o well then he outleveled me.

Oh yeah. Almost forgot. What it do, y'all? [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]