NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

My table image is pretty TAG. I've been taking down pots w/o a showdown for quite some time as I had previously been showing down with the winning hand. Villain is disgustingly loose and passive: 64/7.04/.4.

He and I have only played in one other hand which I played a pocket pair rather passively against him.

If it helps I'm at: 18/11/1.8

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

SB: $108.30
BB: $51.40
UTG: $39.90
CO: $48.65
Hero (BTN): $92.95

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, SB folds, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.25) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $3</font>, BB calls $3

Turn: ($10.25) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $6</font>, Hero calls $6

River: ($22.25) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $40.40 and is All-In</font>

I'm confused about the turn bet and then I guess ultimately the river, but I'd appreciate any comments on the preflop raise and the flop bet.

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

Villain is passive. Villain is betting. We have ace high. I am getting the [censored] out of here.

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

I'm probably folding to the turn donk, unless he smart enough to think that this is probably the driest board possible and was gonna stop and go you.

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

Is there such a thing as a value call/value reraise? Any other time, had there not been the sudden action on the part of the opponent, I'd be VB'ing the [censored] outta this.

In other words, is there ever a situation where we make value calls against a ridiculously loose passive player?

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

maybe i should rephrase this: how often against an opponent like this should we be calling down against a bluff?

If we should always be VB'ing when we lead the action, why shouldnt we be doing the same thing in these situations?

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

We don't call because generally, passive villains don't bluff.

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

WTF?

Probably fold to turn donk. His AF is .7. You definitely can't raise, and a call is pretty gross.

Is there seriously a question on the river? You have Ahigh and a .7AF villain just overshoved on a flushed and 4-straighted board. This isn't a hero call, this is a retard call.

If you are asking about when to make hero calls... well, thats a whole nother issue. But it definitely, definitely, definitely is not here.

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

Against someone playing nearly 65% of cards dealt his range is really, really wide. The only thing you're beating is complete air here and I really doubt he has that often enough that this is profitable. Why would you want to risk 80BBs in such a margial situation to find out?

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

lemme guess.. you folded and he showed you air... amirite?

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

we have Ace High...villian is all in for 80BB into 40BB pot...i don't really need any more info I'm folding.

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

I know this is against the rules, but i think its good for discussion: Because this guy played this hand so ridiculously different than the previous hands he's been in, i practically called. But I let my better judgment come over me because I knew i'd be ashamed to admit I called something like this to anyone on the board.

The long and short is: I folded, villain was nice enough to show me his KJo air.

I told him it was awesome bluff.

But my point is: If we can spot situations to call down an opponent, such as check calling to the river and when a blank hits, nitty guy suddenly bets something like 1/4 or less of the pot, we're most likely calling, right? The river donk bet: obvious call at least most of the time.

(we're in a vacuum and the river could not possible make villain a hand that would beat ours)

Also, nits are capable of bluffing. I think TV poker has taught them that "spotting tells" and bluffing are the most important aspects of the game.

I used up pretty much all my time bank deliberating this situation.

I've been continually pushing people around at this table and I've shown down winning hands greater than 65% of the time. (im saying this to give a better idea of the table image)

I've seen this guy call raises preflop and continually fold on the flop, and then suddenly on the turn decides to bet into me. yes, there's now a 2,3,5 making a possible A4 holding seem likely. Then when another spade hits he goes all in.

I know he's not thinking about pot odds, but he obviously doesnt know that I know he's not thinking about pot odds, and calling the preflop bet to draw to a flush isnt what he's representing.

Even a bluff has to make sense. This one didnt make sense to me. My gut said it didnt make sense, but I made the "proper" laydown. Would i lay those cards down in the same situation with that guy again? Yeah, probably. What information would i be looking at to make the best read on the villain and deduce this as a bluff?

The only things i can think of are his line didnt make sense. Is he capable of a bluff? THen perhaps he's the only 60% VPIP/.7 who is.

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

turn is a fold. the real question in this thread is why are you at 18/11?

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

just wait... sooner or later a guy like this will bluff into you at the wrong time and youll get his stack and then some

and do i win a cookie for being right?

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is passive. Villain is betting. We have ace high. I am getting the [censored] out of here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man its always sweet when the correct answer is the first one

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain is passive. Villain is betting. We have ace high. I am getting the [censored] out of here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man its always sweet when the correct answer is the first one

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the correct play always the airtight sound play?

I mean seriously: What situation would you need to call down a bluff against a total moron who doesnt know how to bluff properly?

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

yeah, i wasted my whole timebank trying to convince myself not to fold.

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

Pretty much.

Right now you are digging yourself into a hole without a latter. Dont worry about picking off bluffs with air. Letting the donk think he can bluff in this situation sets him up to do it later when you can stack him. And he probably has you beat anyway.

I could contemplate a call here with 99, TT, 88 maybe as bluff catchers, but his line screams a 4 or 2 pair.

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know this is against the rules, but i think its good for discussion: Because this guy played this hand so ridiculously different than the previous hands he's been in, i practically called. But I let my better judgment come over me because I knew i'd be ashamed to admit I called something like this to anyone on the board.

The long and short is: I folded, villain was nice enough to show me his KJo air.

I told him it was awesome bluff.

But my point is: If we can spot situations to call down an opponent, such as check calling to the river and when a blank hits, nitty guy suddenly bets something like 1/4 or less of the pot, we're most likely calling, right? The river donk bet: obvious call at least most of the time.

(we're in a vacuum and the river could not possible make villain a hand that would beat ours)

Also, nits are capable of bluffing. I think TV poker has taught them that "spotting tells" and bluffing are the most important aspects of the game.

I used up pretty much all my time bank deliberating this situation.

I've been continually pushing people around at this table and I've shown down winning hands greater than 65% of the time. (im saying this to give a better idea of the table image)

I've seen this guy call raises preflop and continually fold on the flop, and then suddenly on the turn decides to bet into me. yes, there's now a 2,3,5 making a possible A4 holding seem likely. Then when another spade hits he goes all in.

I know he's not thinking about pot odds, but he obviously doesnt know that I know he's not thinking about pot odds, and calling the preflop bet to draw to a flush isnt what he's representing.

Even a bluff has to make sense. This one didnt make sense to me. My gut said it didnt make sense, but I made the "proper" laydown. Would i lay those cards down in the same situation with that guy again? Yeah, probably. What information would i be looking at to make the best read on the villain and deduce this as a bluff?

The only things i can think of are his line didnt make sense. Is he capable of a bluff? THen perhaps he's the only 60% VPIP/.7 who is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Problem is while all this sounds good A high can not even beat a bluff..Most of the time when villain "thinks" he's bluffing he is still doing with the best hand like 22 or bottom pair..You should definitely NEVER make this call...

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

awesome. i completely agree with that. appreciate the explanation.

I guess i'm hellbent on getting to a better level of hand reading/player reading and i really nailed this one, or maybe i just made a lucky guess and was right :/...

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

op,

Part of the reason uNL is so profitable is because people like this that bluff like this when we have AQ, KK, a set, etc. You are way overthinking this.

OTOH,

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post8107578

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post7440578

That man knows his AK

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

-EV WITH ACE HIGH HERE.

Re: NL50 Blank hits turn, opponent wakes up and confuses the hero
 

[ QUOTE ]
op,

Part of the reason uNL is so profitable is because people like this that bluff like this when we have AQ, KK, a set, etc. You are way overthinking this.

OTOH,

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post8107578

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post7440578

That man knows his AK

[/ QUOTE ]

s*** yeah that's what im talkin' bout

as for my OP and overthinking - i think you all are very correct.

but it would be nice to have a post like those you linked to once in a while [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]