KKK on 4-flush board
 

Bodog 5/10
No reads other than a decided willingness for cold calling pre-flop by multiple players.

UTG+1 raises
MP1 calls
MP2 (hero) 3-bets K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Folds to SB and BB, both call, all call
5 way 3 bets

Flop 10 hi [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG+1 bets, call, hero raises, all call except SB
2 bets 4 ways (23 SB total)

Turn K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Checks around (comment?)

River: Brick

UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, Hero folds, SB folds (13BB) (comment?)

Re: KKK on 4-flush board
 

You should bet the turn. Maybe your hand is good. Maybe somebody folds a small club. Even if you get raised that isn't that bad because you have a strong draw.

Re: KKK on 4-flush board
 

When I'm holding a set on the turn, I am betting 100% of the time when it's checked to me. 150% if I can figure out how.

As played, I hate to make the river fold but it's a good one.

Re: KKK on 4-flush board
 

Definitely bet the turn. If called you can obviously check the river through UI.

Re: KKK on 4-flush board
 

Do we overcall on river if donked/called even if we bet on turn?

What if there is a c/r on turn the a lead out. Call? Overcall? What if overcall does not close action?

Concur on weak turn play. Shouldnt have cared if there was a trapper given 10 out re-draw. Losing value and fold equity (maybe low club or str8 draw dumps)

Re: KKK on 4-flush board
 

I would also bet the trun but as played I would raise the river. The club out there is either the nuts or very small so I would hope the small club folds to my raise and I beat the other guys two pair or pocket.

If there is a check raise on the turn I would say three bet and the little club should think he is beat. This may buy a free showdown as well. You have enough outs to keep playing this aggressivaly thru the turn.

Re: KKK on 4-flush board
 

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If there is a check raise on the turn I would say three bet and the little club should think he is beat. This may buy a free showdown as well.

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Speaking of buying and selling, I have some magic beans which just came in...


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You have enough outs to keep playing this aggressivaly thru the turn.

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Actually, you don't.

Re: KKK on 4-flush board
 

I'm leaning toward not raising the flop. It depends a lot on board texture.

Re: KKK on 4-flush board
 

I dont bet this turn, 3 clubs on the flop, 2 villains call 2 cold, 1 b/c.

Given the river action, it is an easy fold. Maybe I suck at game selection, but raising the river to fold out small clubs is not something I see happen, ever.

Re: KKK on 4-flush board
 

You have never seen anyone fold on a four flush broad after a raise?

Have you ever been in a four flush broad and nobody made the hand?

Does this happen more then 1 time in 13?

I did this exact play with top two pair and got the small flush to fold and the caller had smaller two pair. If you are playing against people you know will call then don't do it. If you are playing against people who say this will never work then do it.

Nobody bet the turn which means a moster or a very small club. First one to bet this often wins the pot and the first caller may just be keeping him honest.

At any rate the best non club hand needs to call one bet here with 13.5 to 1 odds.

Re: KKK on 4-flush board
 

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I'm leaning toward not raising the flop. It depends a lot on board texture.

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It also depends upon your opponents. I know of a few who will call down with a wide variety of hands, but who would never initiate action by putting the first bet on any street in this hand unless they had a flush. I also know of a quite a few players who will bet the turn if and only if they have the ace and would only bet the second or third-nut flush on the river if it got checked through on the turn.

Some players in UTG+1 would lead out on this flop only with the nut flush draw, top pair with a good club kicker, an overpair most likely with a club, or possibly a set. Against this player, you might consider just calling the flop and raising the turn on a non-club, non-ace. Who thinks that you should bet the turn against a player with this range?

I would not be surprised to see this hand turn out to have J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] vs Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Then again, AT vs KT with no clubs would not surprise me, either.

Re: KKK on 4-flush board
 

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You have never seen anyone fold on a four flush broad after a raise?

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Yes I have seen people b/f on a 4 flush board.

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Have you ever been in a four flush broad and nobody made the hand?

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Many times.

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Does this happen more then 1 time in 13?

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Do people bet fold the river on a four flush board more than 1-13 ? I honestly dont know for mutliway, h/u sure they do. However in this hand we are not heads up.

River, the pre flop aggressor leads out. He didnt like his hand vs 4 villains on the turn, he is not worried about a flush raising him ?? He gets called in one spot, action is now on us with one to act behind....

I really dont see a raise folding out a flush.

UTG+1 raised pre flop, b/c flop, c turn, bet river. Granted we cant give him credit for the flush.

The players I am worried about, are the cold callers, MP cold called 2 pre flop, SB called 2.5, BB called 2.

Multiple players then call 2 bets on a monotone board, they are all peeling with overcards or underpairs ?

Turn, 4th flush hits and it is checked around. How many times do we see people going for the c/r here in a multiway pot ?

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I did this exact play with top two pair and got the small flush to fold and the caller had smaller two pair.

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A player so bad he is calling with two small pair is never folding a flush either, I think this is the standard of player more typical in sshe than ones who can ass baby flushes.


At any rate the best non club hand needs to call one bet here with 13.5 to 1 odds.

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Re: KKK on 4-flush board
 

Well, my point is the guy we decided doesn't have the flush bets out on the river, if somebody was going to check raise the turn why not do it now?

MP is a calling station and could have anything, if he beats us then good for him.

The guy behind us does pose a problem but he is not going for a check raise means how he is last to act.

My main worry would be UTG1 with a hand like A10 with he Ace being the club.

Plus I am a live player and just realized this in online. That being said, players that make good river folds tend to lose more then the one bet they don't call in the long run.


As for not raising the turn if it is bet...

We would be risking 2 bets to win 14 as a 3.6 to 1 dog. Small chance we take the pot with that bet if the Ace is not out. We win two more bets on the river if we hit, (assuming these guys wouldn't fold there small flushes to a raise), were is the math that says this is a bad bet, chesspain?

Re: KKK on 4-flush board
 

I don't like anything but folding on the river.

Re: KKK on 4-flush board
 

Results time. Thanks for the discussion.

The player behind folded as well. Better had a set of 10s. Caller had KT for two pair. No clubs.

I like the turn bet much better than the check, although I'm still stressing out that the flop two bet had 3 callers.

On the whole I can feel good at b/c on the turn and no overcall on the river

I constantly over-estimate callers (they must have the club). So as played I still like the fold. However, I think the river is easier if bet the turn. It further defines the hand. Against 2-3 opponents its at worst not too -EV if we're behind. It should further define the hand (c/r=big club) and if no c/r then it should freeze the action on the river.

Re: KKK on 4-flush board
 

You may all bow down to me now.

Re: KKK on 4-flush board
 

I feel your pain - have made the same fold with the same result. It is easy to call one but there are two people and both have no clubs??? No way. But...... the key is that you saved one Big Bet at the risk of, if I counted correctly, 11. It takes a long time to make up the loss of 11 Big Bets but no time at all to recover one if you had called and lost.

Re: KKK on 4-flush board
 

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But...... the key is that you saved one Big Bet at the risk of, if I counted correctly, 11. It takes a long time to make up the loss of 11 Big Bets but no time at all to recover one if you had called and lost.

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If you overcall this 20 times, you might win once. That is the key. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: KKK on 4-flush board
 

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Where is the math that says this is a bad bet, chesspain?

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You stated that the OP has a good enough draw to play the turn aggressively, and you expanded on this by stating that you would have three-bet the turn if checkraised in order to get a smaller flush to fold. I think that this qualifies as spew.

Re: KKK on 4-flush board
 

OK, one more time, I will type slowly this time.

On the turn we have a good hand, we want to bet or raise to protect that hand.

If we three bet a check raise of course we want a small flush to fold, because a flush beats a set, and when we raise we normally want better hands to fold.

There is a small chance the check raiser doesn't have a club, or he is the one with the small club. Maybe he is bluffing. Maybe he is trying to protect a set. But, chances are he has a flush.

Now, unless he has the Ace or maybe the Queen, I don't see him betting into us on the river, so we get a free showdown (if we miss). Since we have no reads other then these are bad players, (since they cold call so much), we can't give them credit for that.

You may say this is a bad play but it hardly justifies as spew.