Razz Heads Up
 

Probably you will find my question too fuzzy, and probably you will be right, but I don't find a way to be more precise.

I am trying to play SNG Razz HU, and my results are terrible: I win at PLO as I loose at Razz.
Basically I found that maybe I am too loose in my starting hands but I would like to understand what should I look for having a decent starting hands, playable against "Ante Steal".

I know that it depends from the kind of opponent I play against but I also think it is a general problem (also related with my approach to HU way of playing).

Thank you for any kind of advice. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know that it depends from the kind of opponent I play against but I also think it is a general problem (also related with my approach to HU way of playing).


[/ QUOTE ]
Well, first - are you a winner at Razz at a full table? Second, the best way to get help here is to go to the pinned thread at top, find the converter and post one or two HU Razz hands. Omaha (I assume you mean hi/lo)and Razz, are very different games, almost diametrically opposed.

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

I play PLO and I just wanted to make a comparison: in this period I use for Razz what I win in PLO (pretty sick I suppose)!

About Razz, unfortunately my bankroll doesn't permit me to play cash game full ring Razz in my pokerroom (I really would like to). I read on a page that I found here that a guy started to play Razz HU SNG so I am trying to do that.
About hands, sure I will do that, but I have the feeling that to analyze correctly Razz hands HU is quite difficult cause there are not dead cards and all the other elements which usually are fundamental to have a coprrect picture of the situation on the table.

It is curious that you wrote about Omaha Hi/Lo cause I think I have there the same problem that I have in Razz when I play HU: I don't find the equilibrium in looseness and rationality.

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
About hands, sure I will do that, but I have the feeling that to analyze correctly Razz hands HU is quite difficult cause there are not dead cards and all the other elements which usually are fundamental to have a coprrect picture of the situation on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't know what poker room you are referring to, but if you are online you can play full tables at FT for $2.50 and at Stars for $5.

As for analyzing your hands - I'm afraid you are badly underestimating the level of expertise on this board, and I am not referring to myself. Some of the most successful and highest stakes Razz players anywhere are 2+2 forum participants. And that includes HU Razz specialists.

Your choice, of course, but it's obvious to me you are completely clueless about, well, everything. So, take a breath, post a hand, and hope someone responds. Or don't.

gl

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

No no no... I beg your pardon. Probably I did not explained myself in a decent way (maybe cause my english): if I had no respect for people that write here I was not here during the night (cause I am in europe) posting hands of a game that I would like to learn reading advice from these kind of people about you wrote (cause in my case "learn" is more appropriate then "improve").

I wrote about the fact that I tried to analyze my hands (I post a horrible hand few days ago) but I think it is quite tough for me to give informations cause I don't think I have good feelings to estimate in a decent way my opponents in this game (which is almost completely new to me) and if you don't have it I suppose is difficult to say something about HU.
So, if I woudl read questions about my opponents or his tendencies I would find very difficult to writ something clear and usefull.

I hope I explained what I wanted to write in the past post.

About the hands, this is a hand I played few minutes ago that I found interesting and (I am quite sure) full of mistakes.
About the opponents, really I have no clear ideas: I think he played in the way in which I usually played, which is stealing ante, winning small and loosing big pots. In this HU I decided to play just good hands and no garbage cause I was sure that my opponents would be something like a CS (as I am probably).

Tournament - Razz (15/30), Ante 2, Bring-In 5 (converter)

Seat 1: 1,500
Hero: 1,500

3rd Street - (0.27 SB)

Vil 1: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls

4th Street - (2.27 SB)

Vil 1: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (2.13 BB)

Vil 1: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___raises___calls

6th Street - (10.13 BB)

Vil 1: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___raises___calls
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___raises

River - (18.13 BB)

Vil 1: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

Total pot: (20.13 BB)

Results (in white):<font color="white">

Total pot 604

Vil 1: [6d 5c 4h Qd 7h Jh As] (Lo: 7,6,5,4,A)

</font>


PS: this last HU told me something about my way of thinking about HU. I was usually really frightened to be killed by ante stealing so I tried to do the same but, in this last HU, I found that waiting for good hands and not playing like a maniac that try to steal every possible small pot is better. That's way I wrote in the past post about starting hands.

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

About Razz full tables on Pokerstar, these are Razz SNG, not cash, aren't they?
the fact is that I have some problems with SNG in general and I would prefer to play cash, even 0.04/0.08 (like Stud table in which I stopped to play following the advice of some poster of 2+2), but in PS Razz starts from 0.50/1, which is too much for my BR.

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

Few words about the hand.
I found it interesting not because practically I commited every possible mistake but because it is a good example of my past (I hope!) way of playing Razz HU: always thinking that the other guy, who usually appears as a maniac, is just bluffing.
... it is embarassing...

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
About Razz full tables on Pokerstar, these are Razz SNG, not cash, aren't they?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, regular ring games. You sound like me, no bankroll. But, the .50/1 has a $5 buy-in. I started playing there with $50 and ended up around $200. If you make money at Omaha, you can take a few dollars and try the ring games. See, the antes are .05, so you can afford to wait for good hands.

Yes, I agree that in HU you want to wait for some kind of decent hand and not try a lot of stealing, but I am not a HU expert.

Your other Stars option is to play the daily $1 Razz tournament. Still a lot of bad players at the bottom but they improve the deeper you go. There is also a $3 that a lot of European players are in, much better players.

Of course, you can play .25/.50 for $2.50 on FT. They are pretty bad, but you get the experience.

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

OK, when you post a HH don't put your opponent's hole cards in. If your hand history includs them, take them out. When you played this, you couldn't see his cards, so the discussion has to be about what anyone, (me, someone else here) would do if they played it. I'll give it a try:

[ QUOTE ]


Tournament - Razz (15/30), Ante 2, Bring-In 5 (converter)

Seat 1: 1,500
Hero: 1,500

3rd Street - (0.27 SB)

Vil 1: XX: XX: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm wondering, since you have this nice playable hand (8s are not so good in ring games, but HU this is very strong) if you might have gone ahead and completed the bring-in? If he has a marginal stealing hand, like (K9)4, he'll fold right there, very likely. If he doesn't and he reraises, you can get some information, like maybe he has something better than an 8. Right now, you can only assume he has at least two good cards.

[ QUOTE ]
4th Street - (2.27 SB)

Vil 1: XX: XX: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

[/ QUOTE ]
Now you can be pretty sure he also has a decent starting hand, when he calls a brick here, I'd start thinking he has something better than an 8 for his high card.

[ QUOTE ]
5th Street - (2.13 BB)

Vil 1: XX: XX: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___raises___calls

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know what someone else would say, but I'm not jamming here. You have a made 9 and an 8 draw. His 7 draw, assuming he really has this, is an odds favorite on this street. I'm calling the raise - but not reraising.

[ QUOTE ]
6th Street - (10.13 BB)

Vil 1: XX: XX: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___raises___calls
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___raises

[/ QUOTE ]I think you are a technical favorite now, but if he hits his hand, even if you improve yours, you cannot beat him. I'm still keeping the pot small and just calling. My way is not everyone's way or necessarily the best way.

[ QUOTE ]
River - (18.13 BB)

Vil 1: XX: XX: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] XX:bets
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

[/ QUOTE ]So, you didn't improve, the opponent has been real aggressive without a hand, so I'd expect him to bluff-bet the river or even think maybe you have a J or Q in the hole and I'd call. I wouldn't expect to win it, but I'd call it figuring I'm 50/50.


I am personally not a fan of uber aggression unless I've got a pretty big edge and know it. Razz has a LOT of variance, within a game or trny and through a poker life. I'm a fan of limiting that. Hopefully, some of the better players will chime in and give you another perspective.

Welcome to Razz.



Results (in white):<font color="white">

Total pot 604

Vil 1: [6d 5c 4h Qd 7h Jh As] (Lo: 7,6,5,4,A)

</font>

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

I prefer to let the other guy bet before I raise when I bring in a hand this good. He's going to bet nearly 100% of the time but only have a hand as good as yours like 20% of the time. Might as well get some money in there.

4th is fine

You are not a dog on 5th - it's even money. Whether you want to jam when you're probably 50/50 or not is up to you. (OK actually you're like a 51:49 favorite)

On 6th you're a 2:1 favorite, might as well raise it up.

Call is fine on 7th.

Personally I think you played the hand just fine.

One nice thing about heads up hands is that it's easy to evaluate them with a tool like propokertools.com or twodimes.net because there are no dead cards. If you are OK at estimating equity it's often helpful to think of worst and best cases for his down cards - and by worst I don't mean like KK, I mean the worst down cards that kind of fit his actions.

By 5th I think you have to expect he has 2 cards under 8 in the hole, probably 2 cards under 6. Obviously at best he has like A2. This should help you on 6th, because if he gets and 8 or 9 it probably did not pair him.

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

if you never open complete the BI HU you are probably playing well IMO

this possibly/probably also goes for S8

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

By the way I think it's weird that you want to play heads up with a small bankroll. The swings are going to be hilarious. It's tilt inducing, and you're not even really good at full ring, much less medium ring, much less short handed, much less heads up. Heads up play demands not only a lot of experience at the actual game, but ALSO a lot of experience with heads up and short handed play in general - these are not simple concepts and it's something I struggle with after having played poker constantly for a few years.

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
The swings are going to be hilarious. It's tilt inducing, and you're not even really good at full ring, much less medium ring, much less short handed, much less heads up. Heads up play demands not only a lot of experience at the actual game, but ALSO a lot of experience with heads up and short handed play in general - these are not simple concepts

[/ QUOTE ]

Just in case you missed it the first time.

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

Thank you for all the answer.
About the hole cards of the villain, usually when I play HU I have always open the "instant hand history" to look the mucked cards in the case of a showdown. The fact is that this guy seemed like a crazy bluffer: two times he played with absolutely NOTHING calling raise and reraise - I had a wheel. That's why I thought to be almost always in a better position.
This hand was important cause from this point of the game I started to play focusing more on my starting hands...finally I won an HU after three consecutive defeats [I think before that I played like a drunk or something like that]!

Praxising, I think we are exactly in the same situation, but probably I am in the worse one: NO BANKROLL.
It is interesting what you wrote about 0.50/1 (Ante 0.05) on PS cause yesterday I watched two guy in a table and they seemed to me terrible (I could say iper-passive). Nevertheless I tought "Don't be sick. Don't play out of bankroll" and I played my HU... which now you tell me was a stupid thing cause HU it is not good for my kind of bankroll! [Thanks for opening my eyes]
Just to explain better why I started with HU: the reason is that I found here a link for the page of a guy that built is BR playing almost just Razz HU.
So, considering that I will leave the HU experience for this period (waiting for more experience) following your advice, what kind of solution should I find to play Razz (which I really enjoy)?
Do you think that for cash game on PS (the previous stake) I should wait for good tables full ring, entering with 5 and then playing something like "Hit and Run"?

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

Antoher question: what is the meaning of "IMO"?

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

IMO = In My Opinion.

You might try Full Tilt which at least has .25/.5 razz instead of .5/1. You still need $150 or so for a "real" bankroll but like many others I started with something like $60 and built it into something. I think I also went broke and redeposited at some point though.

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

Oh, and on full tilt it's possible to get rakeback (a percentage of the rake that you pay, gets paid back to you once a month) which is really key at low stakes. The first 2 months I played I basically broke even, and only "made money" because I was getting rakeback payments.

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and on full tilt it's essential to get rakeback (a percentage of the rake that you pay, gets paid back to you once a month) which is really key at low stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you don't already have a real money account on Full Tilt, find a rakeback site that you like and sign up thru them when you make your account. (If you're not in the US, 2+2 has a nice bonus present for you if you sign up thru them). GL on your journey!

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

Thanks for all this advice.

About FTP and rakeback I already have an account with rakeback but I never made a deposit: I would like to put money there with what I earned playing on PS (it is weird, I know, but it is part of my way of thinking about the game).

My basic problem is that I deposited just few euro on PS and I would like to build everything from that (avoiding to be broke). I consider it as an esperiment and a way to learn how to play in BR not going on tilt and being focus (solving with patience some limits in my approach to the game)... that's why it is so difficult to play out of BR in Razz tables which are too big for my BR now.

I hope this will be a long, interesting journey full of good experiences: thanks for "GL". [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

I don't know how much you have in your BR but it sounds like "not much". That's OK but just remember that variance makes fools of us all.

I'm a semi-bankroll nit. I won't play any game regularly that I don't have 300bb for. I'll take shots at higher games sometimes, but only if, after losing a set amount in that game, I'll still have 300bb at my regular level. And I am super selecting about game selective in those instances... game selection in HU sngs is basically non-existent, right?

It might be a good idea to take up some other game that PS offers, that has lower limits, and build up from there... to each his own. Personally with no bankroll I'd be grinding out bonus money if I could, but that's just me. UltimateBet is a pretty good place for that.

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

You're not a bank roll nit. After running bad a while back I multitabled $6 sngs with a $7k roll for a few weeks. Played a few hundred games with 50 % ROI, so I actually made some ok money.

I just hate losing money. I am not a gambler. The other day I played $1/2 PLO and lost $350 that I had at the table. I was super sad even though that's fairly normal variance for me over a day. I will never learn to lose money in a good fashion

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

OK, I'm not AS MUCH of a bankroll nit as "some people" [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] At least, not at the moment. But I've played over-rolled at 5/10 before. Anyway, I'm trying to get out of the 1/2 range so I'm moving up more aggressively than I would if I was already playing 5/10 or 10/20. I'm actually considering a shot at 2/4... my BR is back up to $1100.

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to put money there with what I earned playing on PS (it is weird, I know, but it is part of my way of thinking about the game).

My basic problem is that I deposited just few euro on PS and I would like to build everything from that (avoiding to be broke). I consider it as an esperiment and a way to learn how to play in BR not going on tilt and being focus (solving with patience some limits in my approach to the game)... that's why it is so difficult to play out of BR in Razz tables which are too big for my BR now.


[/ QUOTE ]Ok, now we have a better understanding of your situation - a worthy endeavor! What I did was start in the Stud 8 tables where you can play for .60 at like .02/.04. I played it just like Razz and made a slow but steady income. Razz has an awful lot of variance to try and make it your "build my bankroll" game.

But - think about this carefully - IF you really think HU Razz is your game, not just because someone else did it, but because you think you really love it and just - "get" it - understand it instinctively - then don't stop ONLY because anyone here says so. These are smart people, taking their advice helped me tremendously - but be yourself, also.

You can play the nightly Razz freeroll on FT, a terrible game, but I cashed in it a few times. It si practice and can be lucrative. The HORSE freeroll is also worth your time.

People go broke learning poker. It's just like paying tuition to go to college. If you do and have to reload, there's no shame in that.

Good luck with all of it - stay around, post your HHs, especially those losers.

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a semi-bankroll nit. I won't play any game regularly that I don't have 300bb for.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that I am worse a BR nit in that I won't play a level or less I had 400BB plus the buy-in for the limit with only the money in that site counting as my BR.

After coming here a few days ago, its now 300BB for account held on site:)

[quote
It might be a good idea to take up some other game that PS offers, that has lower limits, and build up from there... to each his own. Personally with no bankroll I'd be grinding out bonus money if I could, but that's just me. UltimateBet is a pretty good place for that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wont play UB as the traffic is very thin. FT and PS are the places to be.

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

This is true. Lots of pros mention going broke over and over and over and over. Of course, I think an awful lot of them took terrible risks and got lucky and made it, and for each of them that succeeded dozens or hundreds full by the wayside. Being the best player at a table unfortunately is not a ticket to surely winning money.

Re: Razz Heads Up
 

Go broke is usefull to learn another part of the game, but it is usefull when you already have a kind of understanding of the game... I think it is quite stupid to be broke as a fish, not trying to find the time to learn. Then, maybe, is also usefull to be broke [everything is usefull to grew up], but when you do that in a rational way. I mean that Chip Reese, for example, sit at a table which was to high for him with Brunson and Pearson, but he felt that he could beat the game. He did it and now he is Chip Reese, but if he was broke after that, he could be always Chip Reese, cause he already was a great 7CS player.
I mean: if I go broke, I will be just another fish with no patience.

Praxising, thank you for your words (as I could say, and I said, to all the other guys that gave me advice). I tried Horse freeroll on FT but I never arrived in the money group [206th and 144th]. I think I will continue to try.
I will try to use PLO (that I love) to do something for my bankroll and then I will start to be focused on 7CS and Razz, two games that I feel more than fascinating.