River value?
 

Immediately after me the villain is 27/16/3 and has been raising a lot of my cbets and putting pressure on me this session. After that is a shortish 60/5/1.5. My plan here was to check to the fish and c/r him all-in to shut out the good reg rather than face a raise. Maybe bad, but I'm balancing.

So, river action?


1/2

UTG ($158.65)
Hero ($193.17)
CO ($650.84)
Button ($68.98)
SB ($193.85)
BB ($319.40)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, CO calls $8, Button calls $8, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($27) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($27) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $17</font>, CO calls $17, Button folds.

River: ($61) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets ?

Re: River value?
 

check..sometimes c/c, sometimes c/f

why didn't you bet the flop?

Re: River value?
 

Fold pf.
Bet the flop.
bet 22 at least on the turn.
check the river.

Re: River value?
 

pf is fine, bet flop to get value from draws, check river and eval

Re: River value?
 

Agree with others, bet the flop and as played bet more on turn. Check river and see what happens.

Re: River value?
 

i explain the flop check in the op. only concerned w/ river here

Re: River value?
 

oh..i wouldn't count on a 60/5/1.5 fish betting the flop so you can c/r

Re: River value?
 

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i explain the flop check in the op. only concerned w/ river here

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i know, but I don't agree with your reasoning and think that betting is a lot better. river is easy check

Re: River value?
 

If you were hu then your reasoning would be fine. 3 handed not-so. You likely have the best hand, but it is really vunerable

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pf is fine...

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This is most deffinatly not tru. He is UTG+1. Wtf? And to all the "people make far too big a deal about pf" folk, this hand highlights why you should be tighter in early position.

IF you ARE going to raise this hand and play, most likely, OOP then dont try and take a trick line with a vunerable hand.

Re: River value?
 

Don't give pf advice

River is all I care about

Re: River value?
 

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Please, if you're really bad at poker don't offer advice, especially pf advice.

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Why are you even posting the hand if you dont want opinions?

Re: River value?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't give pf advice

River is all I care about

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Nice edit.

Re: River value?
 

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Please, if you're really bad at poker don't offer advice, especially pf advice.

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Why are you even posting the hand if you dont want opinions?

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Sorry, that comment was totally rude and inappropriate. Just frustrated because the title and body of my post address only my river question. pf is fine here because people play differently. I don't need a nit telling me to fold when I'm happy playing my style, which varies from 22/15 to 33/26 depending on my mood, cards, table, etc. Please, focus on the question about the river, and if you have no comments, open another thread. Don't hijack.

Re: River value?
 

River is definite check and probably fold, but *consider* calling.

Re: River value?
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Please, if you're really bad at poker don't offer advice, especially pf advice.

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Why are you even posting the hand if you dont want opinions?

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Sorry, that comment was totally rude and inappropriate. Just frustrated because the title and body of my post address only my river question. pf is fine here because people play differently. I don't need a nit telling me to fold when I'm happy playing my style, which varies from 22/15 to 33/26 depending on my mood, cards, table, etc. Please, focus on the question about the river, and if you have no comments, open another thread. Don't hijack.

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There are so many thing's I would like to way about your attitude dude... but instead I will direct you to the second response to your post.

Re: River value?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Please, if you're really bad at poker don't offer advice, especially pf advice.

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Why are you even posting the hand if you dont want opinions?

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Sorry, that comment was totally rude and inappropriate. Just frustrated because the title and body of my post address only my river question. pf is fine here because people play differently. I don't need a nit telling me to fold when I'm happy playing my style, which varies from 22/15 to 33/26 depending on my mood, cards, table, etc. Please, focus on the question about the river, and if you have no comments, open another thread. Don't hijack.

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There are so many thing's I would like to way about your attitude dude... but instead I will direct you to the second response to your post.

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Please, address my attitude. I asked about one street and you need to give you unwarranted (and unwanted) opinion about others. There is no way that I can convince you that my pf play is super standard for me, given my style, thus I'm not interested in opening that up at all. Why are you struggling so hard with this? It's elementary.

Re: River value?
 

lol @ all the river checking

also given your read i actually kinda like the way you played the flop

Re: River value?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please, address my attitude. I asked about one street and you need to give you unwarranted (and unwanted) opinion about others. There is no way that I can convince you that my pf play is super standard for me, given my style, thus I'm not interested in opening that up at all. Why are you struggling so hard with this? It's elementary.

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manupod , I think people are simply trying to engage you in debate about your actions. they aren't trying to insult you. if you don't want to be engaged in debate about some particular thing that's your perrogative. but you have to expect to be engaged in debate on things from time to time, and in fact be grateful for it even when its something you dont want to explore. the debates are what makes 2p2 good, not bad.

i'd suggest that if you dont want to be engaged on, say, preflop then your best course is to simply ignore all discussion about preflop and not even reply to it.

my2c

Re: River value?
 

Well ill take a shot...

The manner you get to the river is clearly important. Personally I do not think that raising your hand from your position is very good. I also do not think its that big a deal.

If you are going to raise that hand from that postion, and you are going to see a flop multiway, and you do flop top pair with a good kicker when there are a bunch of draws on the flop I would NOT reccomend Checking into two players, because one of them is shortstacked. You give absolutely no indeication of why you think he will bet, allowing you pull your trick check/raise maneouvore.

You then underbet the pot in my opinion.. giving far too good odds to the multitude of draws.

Then, the river comes, which is the street you want to discuss...

QT got there. Spades got there. Random Kings got there. And you title your post "River Value?". Well if thats the question, then the answer is no. There is no value in betting the river because you will not get called by worse often enough. But I drew that conclusion from previous streets which is why I chose to mention them. I mean ffs... it's only my opinion, but at the end of the day you can take that on board, use it how you wish and add to your knowledge.... even if all you gleam is "bet tpgk on drawy boards 3-handed when I am pfr for protection... dont go for trick plays that get me into trouble".

Or don't.

If I was going to bet t his river I would be doing so as a blocker bet. If villian is really bluffy I think I would c/c. If not, then c/f.

Re: River value?
 

c/f river, i dont like ur flop line in general cause ur commiting urself against reg if he has a hand, hoping that a passive player bets for u AND hoping that this passive player's betting range will call a c/r with worse then tp3k. I dont think pf is bad btw.

Re: River value?
 

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i explain the flop check in the op. only concerned w/ river here

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well the flop check is terrible into two passive players, so lets address the simple things you are doing wrong first.

Re: River value?
 

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Don't give pf advice

River is all I care about

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this is a serious question...

are you FGators?

Re: River value?
 

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i explain the flop check in the op. only concerned w/ river here

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well the flop check is terrible into two passive players, so lets address the simple things you are doing wrong first.

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ikes he said the one villan has been raising every ccbet. the second is passive tho

still hate the flop check?

Re: River value?
 

yes, obv

if he's raising every cbet just go broke

Re: River value?
 

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yes, obv

if he's raising every cbet just go broke

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Re: River value?
 

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i explain the flop check in the op. only concerned w/ river here

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well the flop check is terrible into two passive players, so lets address the simple things you are doing wrong first.

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ikes he said the one villan has been raising every ccbet. the second is passive tho

still hate the flop check?

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if reg bets and fish calls, even worse spot IMO and even if fish folds its still an annoying spot as c/raising is dumb against competent players (only get called by better or shoved on with poor equity against his range), and cold calling just makes u lost in the hand, leading out is much better, maaaaaybe u could do this with a stronger hand (c/raising makes much more sense with it) but even then it would suck if this flop was checked around.

Re: River value?
 

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yes, obv

if he's raising every cbet just go broke

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hes been raising a lot of c-bets op said but with a fish behind and the fact that villain had apparently been playing back a lot - i think he is more likely to show up with a hand, i think reg's raising and shove calling range is waay ahead of hero's hand in this spot.

Re: River value?
 

hijacked!!!!!!!!!!!!! seriously tho - river is (imo)

c/f &gt;&gt;&gt; b/f &gt;&gt;&gt; c/c &gt;&gt;&gt; b/c ???

Re: River value?
 

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yes, obv

if he's raising every cbet just go broke

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hes been raising a lot of c-bets op said but with a fish behind and the fact that villain had apparently been playing back a lot - i think he is more likely to show up with a hand, i think reg's raising and shove calling range is waay ahead of hero's hand in this spot.

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learn what a conditional operator means...

IF he's raising every cbet just go broke.

I don't see him raising extremely light here (b/c its multiway), but theres all sort of [censored] he and the fish can call with.... just bet.

Re: River value?
 

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yes, obv

if he's raising every cbet just go broke

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hes been raising a lot of c-bets op said but with a fish behind and the fact that villain had apparently been playing back a lot - i think he is more likely to show up with a hand, i think reg's raising and shove calling range is waay ahead of hero's hand in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

learn what a conditional operator means...

IF he's raising every cbet just go broke.

I don't see him raising extremely light here (b/c its multiway), but theres all sort of [censored] he and the fish can call with.... just bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I agree with betting as said earlier, but not with going broke against reg. If villain is raising literally every c-bet over a decent smaple (4 c-bets or more) then sure go broke as hes prob a monkey.

Re: River value?
 

Sounds like the flop is bad to most of you, but OP doesn't seemed concerned with that.

As played, ikestoys, what is your river action?

Re: River value?
 

as played there is obv no value on river given how you have arrived there. b/c &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt; b/f &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt; c/c &lt; c/f

thanks for the BBV flame, then this post. def made me lol

Re: River value?
 

4 draws, 2 hit... couple of weaker made hands out there, but not sure if he calls with them. We should have some sort of read on whether or not he bluffs here much.

Basically, c/c or b/f... leaning towards b/f

Re: River value?
 

bet/fold $39

also: he doesn't seem like a good reg from his stats

Re: River value?
 

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4 draws, 2 hit... couple of weaker made hands out there, but not sure if he calls with them. We should have some sort of read on whether or not he bluffs here much.

Basically, c/c or b/f... leaning towards b/f

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villain either has a weak pair or a draw IMO, very unlikely a bet gets called by something we beat. Like u said though 4 draws, 2 hit, i think ppl r less likely to bet a busted draw in general (more checking than betting but obv player dependant). If u also include the times his draw included a k and hes value-betting, i think c/f is best (this doesnt mean ur giving up on the hand since hes checking behind a lot of pairs he called the turn with and his missed draws a decent amount of the time). c/c isnt bad but ive noticed that unknowns r more likely to check behind busted draws then they r to bet them. dont understand y u would b/f ikes, can u clarify?

Re: River value?
 

lol at the preflop hate. bet the flop and like ike said, just stack off if aggro raises.

I definitely prefer bet/fold the river over the other options

Re: River value?
 

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4 draws, 2 hit... couple of weaker made hands out there, but not sure if he calls with them. We should have some sort of read on whether or not he bluffs here much.

Basically, c/c or b/f... leaning towards b/f

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villain either has a weak pair or a draw IMO, very unlikely a bet gets called by something we beat. Like u said though 4 draws, 2 hit, i think ppl r less likely to bet a busted draw in general (more checking than betting but obv player dependant). If u also include the times his draw included a k and hes value-betting, i think c/f is best (this doesnt mean ur giving up on the hand since hes checking behind a lot of pairs he called the turn with and his missed draws a decent amount of the time). c/c isnt bad but ive noticed that unknowns r more likely to check behind busted draws then they r to bet them. dont understand y u would b/f ikes, can u clarify?

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i'd b/f or c/c (with a few c/fs).... not in love with one over the other. What I would do would change based on my image and the more specific read I'd have.

also our line doesn't look strong, ppl will look you up light here.

Re: River value?
 

please don't kill me OP....

if a good reg has position on you and is calling alot of your raises, the low variance option is to tighten up preflop

however, you are not doing that, so i think QJo is ok if you think you can outplay good reg OOP (which is possible if he is abusing his position). the dynamic you have built up means that you have to bet the flop here for value. if only he calls you can pull loadsa cool moves to punish the floater. like c/r the turn, or c/c turn, c/c R. this is very high variance however, so i would prefer the first option.

you played it in a strange way. fish is unlikely to bet here, neither is CO. so your flop line sucks. you should bet/call or bet/shove against the CO as draws will be a big part of his range.

you should bet the turn bigger, at least $20, going up to $24.

now....you are at the river, you can definitely get some value out of worst top pairs, and middle pairs here. so i think b/f is the way to go. c/c is another option if you think he will try and bluff the river

Re: River value?
 

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now....you are at the river, you can definitely get some value out of worst top pairs, and middle pairs here. so i think b/f is the way to go.

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unlikely against a competent player

Re: River value?
 

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4 draws, 2 hit... couple of weaker made hands out there, but not sure if he calls with them. We should have some sort of read on whether or not he bluffs here much.

Basically, c/c or b/f... leaning towards b/f

[/ QUOTE ]

villain either has a weak pair or a draw IMO, very unlikely a bet gets called by something we beat. Like u said though 4 draws, 2 hit, i think ppl r less likely to bet a busted draw in general (more checking than betting but obv player dependant). If u also include the times his draw included a k and hes value-betting, i think c/f is best (this doesnt mean ur giving up on the hand since hes checking behind a lot of pairs he called the turn with and his missed draws a decent amount of the time). c/c isnt bad but ive noticed that unknowns r more likely to check behind busted draws then they r to bet them. dont understand y u would b/f ikes, can u clarify?

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i'd b/f or c/c (with a few c/fs).... not in love with one over the other. What I would do would change based on my image and the more specific read I'd have.

also our line doesn't look strong, ppl will look you up light here.

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our line to a thiking player is rarely a bluff