Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

I just got a fitness test done, with the following results. In square brackets is how they told me the figures compared to the averages, I don't know too much about the units or specific meanings:

Blood pressure: 125/74, resting pulse 66bpm. [Good.]
Lung function FEV 4.5 (capacity), FVC 5.0 – 90% (strength). [Good]
Fat % 11.03% - [Good / lean]

But then…
VO2 Max = 30. [Poor] Average 44-51.

It seems I have no aerobic capacity at all, according to the chart I would be below average for a 60 yr old man.

It looks like my heart and lungs are essentially OK, and anaerobic work is fine, but aerobic exercise doesn't happen. It matches how I feel when I run: within 2 minutes my legs get heavy and it becomes very uncomfortable (in a lactic acid way that feels more like high reps lifting) well before I get out of breath.

Anyone have any experience of similar, and a decent programme to get VO2 max back on track from a standing start?

Is there any possibility of anything chemically wrong? i.e. heart ok, lungs ok, muscles ok, but no 02 moving between them, any vitamins needed etc?

TY if anyone can help. I had been doing Starting strength, but plan to cancel it in favour of aerobic work given this looks like an emergency situation...

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

running, cycling, rowing, etc.

anything that builds your cardiovascular endurance

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

Lose weight. VO2Max is a fuction of aerobic capcity to weight. Cut your weight by 10% and V02max goes up 10%. It may just be that you have a releatively high body mass.

I would try cycling or nordic thingies if you aren't comfortable running.

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

Where did you get this done? I see you're in London, but does anyone in the states know where I could get this done? Do I have to go through my doctor?

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

It was a service at the gym I joined: Body fat test with skin-fold calipers, flexibilty measuments, press up count, sit up count, lung capacity by blowing in a fan-tube thing, then a process on an exercise bike to determine VO2max

Not sure I should lose weight, I'm 5'10'' 68-70kgs (154lbs)...

Edit: I have realised you don't know how old I am... above post was meant to say that I am 25 and have a VO2 max that would be below average for a 60yr old!

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

Maybe you should do some aerobic exercise.

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

%11 fat and can't run for more than 2 minutes.

what in the hell.......not fair?

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

Don't do endurance stuff, do HIIT.

HIIT basically = VO2max training

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

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Don't do endurance stuff, do HIIT.

HIIT basically = VO2max training

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Another recommendation for a completely out of shape beginner to start with HIIT. I wouldn't try it. HIIT programs require a base level of aerobic fitness and muscular endurance that it appears OP is sorely lacking.

Spend a few months building up your aerobic conditioning. Focus on working at a moderate intensity level and going longer and longer. By moderate intensity, I mean you should still be able to keep a conversation going, and feel 'comfortably tired' at the end. Your standard session might start at around 20-25 minutes in length, but try to get in a long effort once a week. Maybe start by trying to go for 40 minutes, and increase that distance by 5-10% each week. If running is as tough for you as you say, you might want to start with the stationary bike or elliptical machine, but eventually you should move towards running, swimming, or the rowing machine.

After about 3 months you should feel a significant improvement in your aerobic capabilities, and moving into an HIIT period for about 6-8 weeks can really sharpen you up and take you to the next level.

OP, do you have any guesses as to why your conditioning is currently so poor? Did you grow up playing any sports, and what has your exercise level been for the past few years? Is the struggle to run for even a few minutes a new development for you?

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

Go outside and run a quarter mile (400m). If you can finish in less than 1:40ish I'd say the gym just [censored] up the test.

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

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Don't do endurance stuff, do HIIT.

HIIT basically = VO2max training

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Another recommendation for a completely out of shape beginner to start with HIIT. I wouldn't try it. HIIT programs require a base level of aerobic fitness and muscular endurance that it appears OP is sorely lacking.

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Why is it that you think an advanced athlete can benefit from interval training, but a beginner can't?

The notion that one can't/shouldn't do HIIT because they aren't in great shape is silly. They just don't do HIIT as intensely as a more well conditioned athlete (more rest, less resistance, less speed, flatter incline, etc.). What is high intensity for a noob is not high intensity for a great athlete.

HIIT is an excellent way to develop a base level of fitness. HIIT does not mean tabatas.

For example, a simple pattern of running till he feels short of breath, then walking to catch his breath, then running against and repeating is a HIIT program, and it is going to be more effective at boosting his VO2max that trying to get him to run the same distance at a continuous, slow pace.

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

in PE in 6th grade they make you run the straightaways and walk the curves right?............= beginner's HIIT

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

I don't see why you'd have to stop starting strength completely, unless the only time you have is taken up by it. If you have time just do some sort of cardio after your workouts or on off days.

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

Okay, this whole HIIT debate is pretty irrelevant here since for OP jogging for 1 minute would seem to be "high intensity". He just needs to get out there and do some jogging and when he can't any more just walk and then jog some more.

I've never read that HIIT is better at increasing VO2Max than steady-state training of equal difficulty. In fact, most of the cycling training methodology would seem to indicate the opposite. Perhaps you can point me to some references JR ?

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

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I've never read that HIIT is better at increasing VO2Max than steady-state training of equal difficulty. In fact, most of the cycling training methodology would seem to indicate the opposite. Perhaps you can point me to some references JR ?

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The gold standard source I've seen quoted time and time again regarding VO2max and HIIT is the Tabata study, which was done on well conditioned athletes and which JR is not recommending.

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

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I've never read that HIIT is better at increasing VO2Max than steady-state training of equal difficulty. In fact, most of the cycling training methodology would seem to indicate the opposite. Perhaps you can point me to some references JR ?

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There's lots of stuff re: HIIT as opposed to moderate sustained exercise, like
this and this, but you get into equal difficulty. I dunno how to equate different forms but there is stuff about intense interval training to specifically to boost VO2 in endurance athletes like this or here
or Veronique Billat's work as discussed here. There are also all kinds of lay endurance programs that tout interval training for marathoners/swimmers etc.

As a beginner he will likely get rapid gains whatever he does. IMO Interval training (at whatever we want to call it, be it high or medium) is great for his goals but that does not mean it should be done to the exclusion of steady state endurance training.

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

i dont disagree that HIIT is a great way to increase VO2max, but people need to get off the bandwagon sometimes. Right now, pretty much any aerobic activity is going to result in huge gains for you. Do an activity that you enjoy, that gets your heart rate up and you are happy doing 3-4 and later 5 times a week. HIIT is great, but not the end all problem solver.

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

Ty, the main points I was looking for is whether to do an HIIT type thing for 10 mins, or go for 25 or 40 mins however low the intensity, sound like the latter is probably more appropriate.

I think I may have made running difficulty sound worse than it is, but its definitely an unpleasant feeling - as opposed to lifting feeling really satisfying.

I used to be much more active, 10 years ago I played football regularly and 7 years ago I could kickbox sufficiently for a few full-contact fights. But then I went to uni - 1st year in catered halls (budgeted no extra cash for extra food, and no real kitchen facilities), that food couldn't sustain any activity (I lost 7lbs from about the build I am now.), and my fitness completely dropped off from there - obviously in conjunction with more drinking and even less activity.

I am better/more comfortable at HIIT type work - a kickboxing fight was only 3x 1 minute rounds at full intensity, and I wonder if then I could almost have been getting through it anaerobically (can that even make sense?), so thats why I think the steady longer sessions could hit what I am weaker at more accurately.

TY Breakfastburrito, your first post pretty explains what I had been thinking about.

Smiley, regarding 400m, I'd expect to be able to do that at a reasonable pace, I dont seem to mind pushing myself for a few minutes, and I can sprint fairly well, I think I can row 2k pretty fast for a non-rower (but it kills me!). Its 1500m jog at a steady pace thats more daunting - where I just feel all my energy has been drained after 600-800.

Sounds like I should probably do 5k on a running machine, however long it takes, and build up the speed till its a good jog all the way. Is it best to do that every day or are rest days good for cardio?

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

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Sounds like I should probably do 5k on a running machine, however long it takes, and build up the speed till its a good jog all the way. Is it best to do that every day or are rest days good for cardio?


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Listen to your body. Some people can handle training 12x a week, some can handle 6x, some can handle 3, etc. You probably wouldn't want to do more than 3-4x a week while getting started. I'd start with one good workout, take a few days off, do it again, then lower the amount of days off until you feel good doing it.

PS -- It's really hard for me to recommend stuff because I don't really have any idea how your body will respond. Test some stuff out and see how you feel while recovering.

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

Started today; decided to do 30 mins on a treadmill, as far as I could without making myself too uncomfortable.

A mixture of walking at 7kph and jogging at 8kph and I covered about 3.75km.

Allowing myself to walk was a big deal, previously when I tried to start cardio I'd consider myself too useless if I didn't keep jogging, so I could never do a proper session.

I checked heart rate whenever I started walking and found I generally got uncomfortable jogging when it reached about 165, and I started jogging again when it was down to 145. I think I have read that that is a reasonable range to exercise in.

Plan now is to work my way up to doing 4k at a continuous 8kph, then to gradually up the speed for the whole thing until running 30 mins at a proper pace. (I don't like the idea of being on a treadmill any length of time approaching an hour, hence 30 mins but with increasing speed.

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

There seems to be a lot of confusion, so here is my big picture understanding.

There are 2 big things going on regarding aerobic performance.

1) Vo2max, or the maximum volume of oxygen that the body can consume during intense, whole-body exercise, while breathing air at sea level. Its more or less how much oxygen your heart can deliver to your body. We know that as a whole, the capacity of the body's skeletal muscles to use oxygen is greater than the body's ability to deliver oxygen to its skeletal muscles, so a limiting factor in aerobic ('with oxygen") exercise is how much oxygen the body can deliver to the muscles.

Recent studies focusing on the genetics of exercise adaptation have also demonstrated that not only is our starting point genetically determined, but our adaptability to training (how much we improve) is also quite variable and genetically influenced. While the typical person will show a substantial increasing in VO2 max with 6 months of exercise, carefully controlled research studies have shown that a small percentage of people will hardly show an increase in VO2 max at all.

Good linky


2) Lactate threshold: Is the intensity lactic acid accumulates in the blood stream. It is a measure of how long you can sustain performance at a given level of VO2 max performance. If the rate of uptake, or disappearance, of lactate equals the rate of production, or appearance, in the blood, then blood lactate concentration stays constant (or nearly so). But, when the rate of lactate production exceeds the rate of uptake, lactic acid accumulates in the blood volume, then we see the ONSET of BLOOD LACTATE ACCUMULATION (OBLA). This is the traditional "Lactate Threshold" (LT), and once you pass you find fatigue on its way. Its sounds like the OP knows about this, as evidenced by his comment that:

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It looks like my heart and lungs are essentially OK, and anaerobic work is fine, but aerobic exercise doesn't happen. It matches how I feel when I run: within 2 minutes my legs get heavy and it becomes very uncomfortable (in a lactic acid way that feels more like high reps lifting) well before I get out of breath.

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I focused on your title at first but this comment is insightful as to your situation.

A big VO2 max sets the ceiling for our sustainable work rate. It is a measure of the size of our performance engine. However, the Lactate Threshold greatly influences the actual percentage of that engine power that can be used continuously.

Training results in a decrease in lactate production at any given exercise intensity. Untrained individuals usually reach the LT at about 60% of VO2 max. With training, LT can increase from 60% to above 70% or even higher. Elite endurance athletes and top masters athletes typically have LTs at or above 80% of VO2 max. Values approaching 90% have been reported. The lactate threshold (or thresholds) is/are both responsive to training and influenced by genetics.
good linky


Steady state is better for lactate threshold. In most individuals, lactate threshold is the limiting factor in endurance activities. It is also the one that is most susceptible to adaptation from exercise and is more genetically susceptible to manipulation through exercise than VO2 max.

Alex-db, while increasing your VO2 max as your body will allow will be a boost to your performance, it is your lactate threshold that should be your focus, both because it seems to be the limiting factor in your performance and it is more susceptible to manipulation through exercise.

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

Good article, thanks, it feels like a very intuitive explanation of how the exercise felt. (I hadn't heard of lactate threshold before.)

It does look (and feel) like the specific problem is a really low LT2.

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The bottom line is that exercise intensities above the LT2 point can only be sustained for a few minutes...

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Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

Hey JR, great stuff. That guy has a whole great page, I found this thing page that directly compares the effects of intervals vs. lactate training for aerobic capacity :

http://home.hia.no/~stephens/interval.htm

This jives with what I anecdotally knew of pro cycling training, which is basically that they try very hard to stay under lactate threshold, and will just do a little interval once in a while. In fact they think that training above lactate is harmful to endurance (I have yet to find the science behind why that might be true).

Basically, VO2Max adapts very quickly, and almost any kind of exercise can boost it (even weight lifting), and in fact intervals are great for it. If you're a fit person who just took a break for a while, VO2Max will come back up very quickly.

Lactate Threshold is much harder to change and takes years of steady state training, and is the limiting factor for endurance athletes. The way that pros train is mainly for LT, not VO2max.

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

I like to think of VO2Max as the ultimate determiner of whether or not a runner, rower, cyclist, etc. could ever be world class.

I would compare this to genetically being tall, athletic, quick for a sport like basketball.

While clearly oversimplified, is this close to accurate?

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

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It does look (and feel) like the specific problem is a really low LT2.

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Keep in mind that LT2 is a % of VO2max, so of course a poor VO2max is going to mean that you also have a low lactate threshold.

For your intended training plan, you'd be much better served to increase distance rather than intensity once you build up to 5k.

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

JR do you agree with me that's it's much more likely the OP just had his test screwed up?

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

Maybe it was screwed up, or innacurate, but I am clearly very unfit.

It didn't seem like such an accurate process and was calculated with rulers on graphs rather than anything more advanced.

It was also done on a bike, which I haven't used much, so it sounds from the article like if the test had been done on a rowing machine instead, the result might have been more reasonable (still poor though) due to a higher LT2 in that exercise.

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

I'm not certain, but from what you said about blowing into a "fan thingy" I would guess that your test was not VO2Max, but a "submaximal" VO2 test.

For submaximal determinations, an athlete's max VO2 is predicted while their lactate threshold is determined based on physiological tests which do not take the athlete to his or her absolute fatigue point. For maximal VO2 tests, on the other hand, the athlete is taken to their absolute breaking point of muscular and anaerobic fatigue. During the max VO2 test, the athlete's max heart rate will also be gleaned.(from this site)

This page tells how a VO2max test is administered. From the above quote, it could be extrapolated that your low LT may affect your results.

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

Yeah, you pretty much got it.

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This jives with what I anecdotally knew of pro cycling training, which is basically that they try very hard to stay under lactate threshold, and will just do a little interval once in a while. In fact they think that training above lactate is harmful to endurance (I have yet to find the science behind why that might be true).

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Intense interval training *is not* harmful to endurance. In and of itself it will help a person's endurance.

The issue is recovery. Training above the lactate level, as occurs with intense intervals, results in amongst other things, lots of lactic acid. Its harder to recover from, and that presents an issues for *elite endurance athletes* who are looking to train every day.

Basically their is a trade-off they have to make and the preference is to focus on lactate threshold.

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Basically, VO2Max adapts very quickly, and almost any kind of exercise can boost it (even weight lifting), and in fact intervals are great for it. If you're a fit person who just took a break for a while, VO2Max will come back up very quickly.

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Steady state will boost VO2 max, more so the higher the intensity. Intense intervals will boost VO2 max max much better, but the issue is it is easier to get to your VO2 max ceiling than your max lactate threshold, so diminishing marginal returns are abrupt as one approaches the ceiling of their Vo2 max.

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Lactate Threshold is much harder to change and takes years of steady state training, and is the limiting factor for endurance athletes. The way that pros train is mainly for LT, not VO2max.

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This is why they try to limit intense intervals, because they get more return out of focusing their training on their lactate levels. Intense intervals limit the ability to do lactate training by presenting greater recovery issues.

That all said, it still speaks volumes that elite endurance athletes who have been training for years are still incorporating intense interval training, albeit at a lesser frequency than steady state.

I would think anyone looking to improve their aerobic capacity would incorporate intense intervals, especially those well below elite levels.

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

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Started today; decided to do 30 mins on a treadmill, as far as I could without making myself too uncomfortable.

A mixture of walking at 7kph and jogging at 8kph and I covered about 3.75km.

Allowing myself to walk was a big deal, previously when I tried to start cardio I'd consider myself too useless if I didn't keep jogging, so I could never do a proper session.

I checked heart rate whenever I started walking and found I generally got uncomfortable jogging when it reached about 165, and I started jogging again when it was down to 145. I think I have read that that is a reasonable range to exercise in.

Plan now is to work my way up to doing 4k at a continuous 8kph, then to gradually up the speed for the whole thing until running 30 mins at a proper pace. (I don't like the idea of being on a treadmill any length of time approaching an hour, hence 30 mins but with increasing speed.

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I think it would be pretty difficult to do HIIT on a treadmill. I just dislike them in general so take that FWIW.

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

Yesterday ran continuously 30mins at 8kph, thats only the 5th run so that may help motivate someone else in similar state of unfitness (motivated me).

It now feels more like a warm-up run than the wrong end of a sprint.

Just need to go faster now so I don't have to know I'm going 33% slower than the guy next to me who is running for longer!

If i'm interpreting the science correctly, I think V02max and lactate threshold are noticably improving - since 160bpm now feels sustainable (LT2 upwards) AND 160bpm created enough power to go 8kph sustainably (VO2 upwards).

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

I have problems with running too. When I start to run I feel heavy and dizzy. I also have to stop after few mins to burp. And yes I do have a brake from food for at least 2 hours. But I seem to do ok with other activities. I can walk for hours and do jujutsu or aikido and not feel tired.

Re: Terrible VO2Max, any suggestions?
 

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I have problems with running too. When I start to run I feel heavy and dizzy. I also have to stop after few mins to burp. And yes I do have a brake from food for at least 2 hours. But I seem to do ok with other activities. I can walk for hours and do jujutsu or aikido and not feel tired.

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Two hours isn't enough. Since you're burping, it certainly not long enough for you.
I used to run Wednesday nights with a running club at 6:30PM. Never eat after 11:30AM that day.