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-   -   Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentration (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=540116)

Bond18 11-06-2007 11:10 PM

Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentration
 
For a very long time I didn’t really bother with metagame very much. I’d fire up 8-12 tables, switch to auto pilot, and maybe if I made a final table I’d start concentrating. I didn’t think about other players very hard and really didn’t think much about how I was perceived. These days that sometimes still happens if I’ve got a ton of tables up and it’s early, but I still try to make an effort to take notes or remember on which tables I have a specific image that will alter decisions.
First of all let’s go over the basics. You’re going to want pokertracker and poker ace HUD if you do serious multi tabling. Some say if you’re paying enough attention you shouldn’t need them, but I tend to disagree. If you’ve got 6 tables up it’s hard to tell if a guy is tight because he’s a bit card dead and a sort of tight player, or a full on mega nit. When PAHUD tells you the guy is 7/5 over 150 hands, you can rest easy folding to his raises in spots you might have taken an alternative action. Also, since it stores players data from previous sessions the information is just completely invaluable.

Next I want to talk about what to look for from other players. A lot of times players aren’t quite sure exactly what to put in their notes, and leaving notes for yourself like “loose aggressive” or “tight” can be a little vague and less than helpful later. Here’s some things I like to take notes on:

1. Sometimes I’ll note a whole hand the villain played since being able to reread that later will tell me a lot about them.


2. I always watch what peoples min raises mean pre flop and note it. The two to watch for are EP min raises (which are normally strong hands) and button/CO min raises (which are normally garbage.) Until proven otherwise I assume those two to be true, but the moment I see their cards after a min raise I note what they have.

3. Along the line of number 2, I always note what people tiny reraise with pre flop. Since this normally ends up being a monster I need to know if their capable of doing this with a wide range, or, like most players, are only doing this with their biggest hands.

4. I make sure to note which players will raise/fold with 13-20 BB’s. You would never believe how many ranked players I have this note on, it’s [censored] everywhere. However, when you see a very good 2p2’er at your table you should normally expect them not to be doing this often.

5. I always note which players are resteal capable. Especially at low/mid limits there are still a ton of players who simply don’t have the resteal in their arsenal, so knowing which players can is a huge help down the road. I also like to note who is a habitual restealer.

6. I like to note which players will get very aggressive on the flop without a plan or in spots where it doesn’t make logical sense to do so. The most obvious example you’ll see is somebody make a big raise/check raise and then when they get 3 bet freeze up and wonder what to do or stack off in a really bad spot because they feel pot committed. Against these players I start fast playing more since I expect them to spew.

7. Whenever possible I try to note peoples open shoving ranges. Some guys with 11 BB’s in MP with antes will shove any SC, any suited one gapper, any A, any pair, etc etc. Some will shoe AJ+/66+. It helps to know which is which.

8. I like to note when I’ve done something crazy aggressive to a player and he saw my cards. Putting a note that “villain knows you can be very spewy/aggressive” will help you shape future actions. Again, sometimes I’ll put the whole hand in there.

9. I try to note which players will try to dominate a bubble. If these guys get some chips near a bubble you can really punish their aggression with 3 bets since many players (myself included) start raising a ton of hands if the table won’t stop them.

10. I try to note what peoples bet sizes mean post flop. For example you’ll see some guys who use bet sizes that are CLEARLY for value and it helps to know that. I also like to know what people will over shove pot with, since for some it means draws and for others the nuts. Another common one is the most flop min raise, it tends to be either a draw, information raise, or most common, a monster (especially if it’s done on the turn.) Knowing what your opponent is trying to accomplish with his bet is crucial.

Alright, as for players reacting to my metagame, this really just takes more awareness and concentration at your table. If you want to kind of zone out that day and watch TV or talk on AIM or whatever else that’s fine, but keep in mind it’s cutting into your profits. Being aware of your image comes with experience, but the deeper you get in a tournament the more important it gets since it’s more likely your opponents are paying close attention. To really max out your game, you need to be able to make those ‘feel’ reactions at the table. You can justify a lot of things based on your image or a players image or the metagame at the table, and it’s hard to quantify in words exactly how much it means.

If you want to experiment with how much metagame means and feeling how important it is, here’s one ‘training suggestion’ I have. Fire up Full Tilt one night and at 11pm Eastern time there are two deep stacked 6 max tournaments (one is a 24+2, one a 100+9.) Play only those two tournaments and concentrate on making plays and reads. Since there’s only a total of 10 players to keep your eye on and you have enough chips to splash around and get creative, see what you can do by manipulating your image, especially if you make it to the ante period. This is a great way to improve on reads and post flop play, while taking notes on a manageable scale.

As always, if there’s anything I didn’t cover or you want me to elaborate on, just ask of course.

BarryLyndon 11-06-2007 11:48 PM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentration
 
You are a beautiful person.

ChipSpeak 11-06-2007 11:50 PM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
This is free right?

These keep getting better, appreciate the insight Bond!

hamnegger 11-07-2007 12:02 AM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
i read some of your other info too bond. great stuff. just went aggro on the bubble winning 10-35 hands going from 13k to 35k. just reading is great reminders we should go back to this every once in awhile

plzleenowhammy 11-07-2007 06:37 AM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
i don't have the work ethic to do this.. i want to do it and i usually type in a few notes but i'm eventually i stop caring and the thought that "its all gonna come down to a coinflip neway" creeps into my head.

levAA 11-07-2007 06:47 AM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
Very good post again - thank you bond.

The longer I play the more learn what notes to take about my opponents, which information is really valuable for me and which information i do get from PT/PAH. There are really some good tips for note-taking here, which i will immediately incorporate to my game.

Bond18 11-07-2007 07:02 AM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
[ QUOTE ]
i don't have the work ethic to do this.. i want to do it and i usually type in a few notes but i'm eventually i stop caring and the thought that "its all gonna come down to a coinflip neway" creeps into my head.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea i used to think that way, though the more you force yourself to pay attention and give yourself a way of doing that (taking notes) you'll find the better you play over time and the more habitual it gets. Eventually you won't even notice you're concentrating, if that makes any sense.

Rocco 11-07-2007 11:03 AM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
[ QUOTE ]
First of all let’s go over the basics. You’re going to want pokertracker and poker ace HUD if you do serious multi tabling. Some say if you’re paying enough attention you shouldn’t need them, but I tend to disagree. If you’ve got 6 tables up it’s hard to tell if a guy is tight because he’s a bit card dead and a sort of tight player, or a full on mega nit. When PAHUD tells you the guy is 7/5 over 150 hands, you can rest easy folding to his raises in spots you might have taken an alternative action.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you're recommend using PT for multitablers...

[ QUOTE ]
Also, since it stores players data from previous sessions the information is just completely invaluable.

[/ QUOTE ]

...and then you say the information is invaluable since it stores data from previous sessions???

Or am I just getting it all wrong?

radii 11-07-2007 11:11 AM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
I don't know if its part of this one or perhaps another part in this series, but I'd really like to know what, if anything, you look for in pokertracker/PA HUD when you don't otherwise have notes on a player, or if you see a player join your table and you have a few hundred hands on him already. The VP$P and PFR are the obvious ones, but i wonder if you look heavily into any of the other stats that are available when making decisions, or if there are common things that you notice in HUD that impact your decision making.

Thanks, this is some really valuable information.

RonFezBuddy 11-07-2007 11:14 AM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if its part of this one or perhaps another part in this series, but I'd really like to know what, if anything, you look for in pokertracker/PA HUD when you don't otherwise have notes on a player, or if you see a player join your table and you have a few hundred hands on him already. The VP$P and PFR are the obvious ones, but i wonder if you look heavily into any of the other stats that are available when making decisions, or if there are common things that you notice in HUD that impact your decision making.


[/ QUOTE ]

Great question

ZenMusician 11-07-2007 11:33 AM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
When your book comes out, PM me for cover design [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Thanks for another great one (and fast, too!)

-ZEN

BlueEcho 11-07-2007 12:26 PM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
The only thing that I take notes on that wasn't mentioned is the guy who limps from early position and folds or calls a shove late in a tourney. This note has been valuable to me if I'm running a short stack late.

Oh yeah it goes without saying that these threads are awesome!

Perplexity 11-07-2007 12:31 PM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
You mention PA HUD -- can you describe your setup?

DeuceSeven 11-07-2007 01:38 PM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
I've taken all 7 of bond's strategy posts and copied them to wordpad. Great stuff. Absolutely invaluable. I haven't taken many notes because I almost never run into the same players again in mtts. I think this is something I should try.

Jetpilot86 11-07-2007 02:35 PM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if its part of this one or perhaps another part in this series, but I'd really like to know what, if anything, you look for in pokertracker/PA HUD when you don't otherwise have notes on a player, or if you see a player join your table and you have a few hundred hands on him already. The VP$P and PFR are the obvious ones, but i wonder if you look heavily into any of the other stats that are available when making decisions, or if there are common things that you notice in HUD that impact your decision making.

Thanks, this is some really valuable information.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm no pro but the other numbers I watch are:

Post flop aggression: lower the number the bigger the hand the villian has when he bets, easy to read and avoid.

Win when sees flop % (vs or combined with) Win Showdown %: Litmus test on success of his aggression and his decision making. Not seeing a lot of showdowns tells me the villian has a good read on the table when combined with a high WWSF%, winning most of the showdowns he sees indicates the same thing, just on the river. Both of these as high numbers indicates to me that I need to be aggressive with this person earlier rather than later, low WSD% tells me he can be trapped or pays off a lot of marginal stuff, low WWSF% would tell me that he'll give up a lot of hands between there and the river and can be pushed around.

# of hands: obviously the more you have the better reliability you can expect out of the rest of the numbers.

I watch all this with PAHud on a 2 minute hand refresh cycle so I can keep as up to date as possible. I don't have time to dig thru PT with the limited time available to act. Just check my notes and look at the stats. I know I don't look at my notes enough.

SengioKang 11-07-2007 06:05 PM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
[ QUOTE ]
i don't have the work ethic to do this.. i want to do it and i usually type in a few notes but i'm eventually i stop caring and the thought that "its all gonna come down to a coinflip neway" creeps into my head.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree. these notes pay off in the future.... you may have to alter them, but think of it this way....
if you go out and start chopping a big pile of firewood, yet fail to finish... you'll be that far ahead tomorrow when you go back out ... and you won't freeze tonight

Killingbird 11-07-2007 06:23 PM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
Every day I learn something new on this site that improves my game. With this post, I learned like 5 new things.

Boise123 11-08-2007 12:23 AM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
[ QUOTE ]
You mention PA HUD -- can you describe your setup?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would also like to hear aout you setup. Looking forward to part 8.

Bond18 11-08-2007 01:15 AM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
My set up is two 19 inch monitors, though i'm thinking of getting a third. I normally play about 8, though it goes from 6-12ish. I try not to go to many these days cause i want to concentrate some.

I use VPIP, PFR, flop aggression, and over how many hands. I remember quite a few players and take a fair few notes, but when you play that quantity of tables you just can't keep track of anywhere near enough.

I think PFR is the most important since it lets you know who can steal/resteal and who you can fold to when stealing.

jcg2005 11-08-2007 04:27 AM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
Amazing that you can play so well using only those stats. Another great contribution to the forum. Thx bond.

JammyDodga 11-08-2007 07:47 AM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First of all let’s go over the basics. You’re going to want pokertracker and poker ace HUD if you do serious multi tabling. Some say if you’re paying enough attention you shouldn’t need them, but I tend to disagree. If you’ve got 6 tables up it’s hard to tell if a guy is tight because he’s a bit card dead and a sort of tight player, or a full on mega nit. When PAHUD tells you the guy is 7/5 over 150 hands, you can rest easy folding to his raises in spots you might have taken an alternative action.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you're recommend using PT for multitablers...

[ QUOTE ]
Also, since it stores players data from previous sessions the information is just completely invaluable.

[/ QUOTE ]

...and then you say the information is invaluable since it stores data from previous sessions???

Or am I just getting it all wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

invaluable

i think you are just getting it wrong.

muzzbuzz84 11-08-2007 09:26 AM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
Invaluable means the opposite to what you would imagine it to.

Tackleberry 11-08-2007 04:14 PM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
[ QUOTE ]
[...] I'd really like to know what, if anything, you look for in pokertracker/PA HUD when you don't otherwise have notes on a player [...]

[/ QUOTE ]

PA HUD (in combination) with PT is simply the best anyone can do to make life easier. What I´m doing is to have a permanent look to VP$IP, PFR, TA and #Hands - just to have a quick overview for standard situations.

If I indeed come into a tough situation or plan to make a move I just click on the players name and (independent from the figures I directly displayed on the screen) I will get a complete list of the statistical figures of that player.

Valuable data besides the mentioned ones are "Flop Aggression", "Turn Aggression", "Fold to Flop bet", "Fold to Turn Bet", "Fold to River Bet", "Attempt to Steal", "Fold SB/BB to Steal".

Summarized nearly any figures can help you to judge a situation correctly.

<u>Examples:</u>

<ul type="square">[*]If a player raises pf and checks the flop just take a look at his C/R-rate and you will know how to proceed.[*]If a player has a low "fold to flop-bet"-rate but a high "fold-to-turn-bet"-rate, I´m tempted to fire a 2nd-barrel nearly any time with ATC if I´m HU against him and have the initiative.[*]If he instead has a high "Flop Aggression"-factor but a very low "Turn Aggression", maybe even in combination with a high "Fold-to-Turn-Bet"-Rate you´ll know what to do: call the (obvious) c-bet on an adequate board, let him check the turn and smash a reasonable bet into his face. He will mostly fold - if the stats don´t lie. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img][*]If one has a very high "Attempt-to-Steal-Blind"-Rate I´ll look for situations to resteal on him.[/list]There will be much more examples but I´ll stop here.

Hope this helps somehow ...

maddis 11-08-2007 05:18 PM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
I have a simple questions: how can you start up to 12 tables? I am registered to 4 pokerrooms and there are not enough MTTs at my stakes (20$-50$) to register for so many tournaments. how do you do that?

Bond18 11-08-2007 09:01 PM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
[ QUOTE ]
I have a simple questions: how can you start up to 12 tables? I am registered to 4 pokerrooms and there are not enough MTTs at my stakes (20$-50$) to register for so many tournaments. how do you do that?

[/ QUOTE ]

I play on up to 5 rooms with a very wide range in stakes, from 24 dollar FO's some days (though normally my minimum is the 50/50's) to the 1k buy ins.

BarryLyndon 11-08-2007 09:46 PM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
Bond - I live in the US and I am looking to expand my rooms beyond Full Tilt. Obv., poker stars is a suggestion. But, what other rooms do you suggest that are reliable and that have a nice, fluid movement of $$ back and forth.

Also, I have built a roll to 3.4K. I'm on a massive SNG downswing and, at the same time, my MTT play has taken a marked improvement. Is it time for me to strictly concentrate on MTTs?

Barry

felixleong 11-08-2007 10:31 PM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
good post [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Bond18 11-08-2007 10:58 PM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
Barry,

Unfortunately due to UIGEA, the only US available poker rooms that aren't a major hassle are Tilt and Stars. You can do UB but their support is beyond awful (i am banned and they won't tell me why and i've never done anything CLOSE to wrong there) plus they are owned by same people as absolute.

Bodog is an option but moving money there is annoying since no transfers.

My best advice for this situation is write your senator and tell him you are pissed about the situation and that the WTO may enforce billions of dollars in sanctions just to keep you away from playing poker in your own home. Yea i know, total rant there.

radii 11-08-2007 11:29 PM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I have built a roll to 3.4K. I'm on a massive SNG downswing and, at the same time, my MTT play has taken a marked improvement. Is it time for me to strictly concentrate on MTTs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like we're in the exact reverse situations. I'm building a roll on stars, up to around $1500, and there is more than enough to keep me fully busy on stars for now. In fact, its around where you're at now, $3000 or so, that I intend to pull some out and set up an account, rakeback, and the $600 bonus on tilt.

For now, as a US player, I cannot fathom playing anywhere but Stars or Full Tilt.

I have written my congressmen too. Unfortunately, I live in Georgia, and I get a form letter back saying that all my congressmen think I'm going to hell for gambling or some such nonsense.

Super Villain 11-08-2007 11:48 PM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
[ QUOTE ]
I've taken all 7 of bond's strategy posts and copied them to wordpad.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT I have all of them in a folder

Keep it up Bond. We appreciate the MTT love!

RonFezBuddy 11-09-2007 12:45 AM

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 7, Metagame and Concentrat
 
Bond, your posts are going to graduate a bunch of us to the HSMTT forum. Thanks.


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