$50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

Poker Stars, $50 + $5 NL Hold'em Tournament, 300/600 Blinds, 8 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (MP2): 9,800
CO: 28,654
BTN: 18,770
SB: 7,539
BB: 9,973
UTG: 17,975
UTG+1: 16,084
MP1: 6,040

Pre-Flop: (1,300) Thttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (MP2)
4 folds, <font color="red">Hero ?????</font>


CO is Stealthmunk, Button/SB are randoms, BB is Intervntion.

What is your plan?

Are you raise/calling to anyone? Open folding preflop since raise/folding essentially turns ATo into 72o? Saying [censored] it and raise/folding anyways?

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

raise 1600, fold to CO and BU, call SB and BB

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

it's between open shoving and raise/calling. i'm leaning towards raise/calling since intervntion is BB. i think i'd fold to stealth munk and button's shove if i were u but call sb and bb's.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

u can open this hand but it completely becomes 2 7 imo, if ur opening its because u are exploiting a tight table r something, not because u have ace ten

Edit: i havent played much with intervention much which might change things but generally this hand is 2 7 when u raise it here

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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raise 1600, fold to CO and BU, call SB and BB

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Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

The hh is messed up or something, if there are 8 people at the table but you're 5th to act there shouldn't be 4 left to act behind you. Explain.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

Also if you're really the hijack I think raise/calling here is ridiculous spew. Do you really think someone is shoving over Adam here super light when he opens for 3x with 16 bb's? No one does that anymore.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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The hh is messed up or something, if there are 8 people at the table but you're 5th to act there shouldn't be 4 left to act behind you. Explain.

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I think I messed up the HH and it should say 3 folds

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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Also if you're really the hijack I think raise/calling here is ridiculous spew. Do you really think someone is shoving over Adam here super light when he opens for 3x with 16 bb's? No one does that anymore.

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intervntion would

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

my default line would be raise/ fold but this is one of those spots where reads and table image could swing me to raise/call if bb shoved and I felt he was restealing.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

I like what Rekwob said!

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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Also if you're really the hijack I think raise/calling here is ridiculous spew. Do you really think someone is shoving over Adam here super light when he opens for 3x with 16 bb's? No one does that anymore.

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Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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Also if you're really the hijack I think raise/calling here is ridiculous spew. Do you really think someone is shoving over Adam here super light when he opens for 3x with 16 bb's? No one does that anymore.

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in a $50 this may well be true. in a $200 I see worse hands allllllll day

edit: what, SB/BB aren't "value shoving" A7s here or something?

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

if we raise our hand is not 27. this is true for a number of reasons, one of which is fairly obvious imo. what if we get flatted by one of the random blinds? clearly our hand is not equal to 27 in this instance.

i'm also w/ adanthar and rekwob...random people shove random [censored] in the blinds here all the time.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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if we raise our hand is not 27.

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O MAN welcome to my side of the argument, remember when it took me literally 5 hours to explain this to you in a smilarish situation?

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

I figure we get flatted very rarely here,

but as always LuckyChewy is right [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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if we raise our hand is not 27. this is true for a number of reasons, one of which is fairly obvious imo. what if we get flatted by one of the random blinds? clearly our hand is not equal to 27 in this instance.

i'm also w/ adanthar and rekwob...random people shove random [censored] in the blinds here all the time.

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Yeah I agree with all this.

And it also all depends on if you're known as well (I'm assuming you are) which even further dictates the above.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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if we raise our hand is not 27. this is true for a number of reasons, one of which is fairly obvious imo. what if we get flatted by one of the random blinds? clearly our hand is not equal to 27 in this instance.

i'm also w/ adanthar and rekwob...random people shove random [censored] in the blinds here all the time.

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Yeah I agree with all this.

And it also all depends on if you're known as well (I'm assuming you are) which even further dictates the above.

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I'm likely an unknown to anybody but Stealthmunk, who upon joining our lovely table immed started rooting for me to go busto when I got my stack in vs someone [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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if we raise our hand is not 27.

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O MAN welcome to my side of the argument, remember when it took me literally 5 hours to explain this to you in a smilarish situation?

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ehh i think there are instances in theory where this is the case.

but yeah i used to be dumb(still am actually) and i concede. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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if we raise our hand is not 27. this is true for a number of reasons, one of which is fairly obvious imo. what if we get flatted by one of the random blinds? clearly our hand is not equal to 27 in this instance.

i'm also w/ adanthar and rekwob...random people shove random [censored] in the blinds here all the time.

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chewy ur right that if we get flatted our hand has postflop value but in this spot were almost never being flatted esp in a tournament with a good field like the 50 rebuy, for the most part people are generally not flatting when the effective stack is 15 blinds or so. Also a lot of good players, like intervention perhaps, that most people that are good and raising ~ 15 big blind stacks arent folding to a shove when they open raise since its "the perfect resteal stack."

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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if we raise our hand is not 27. this is true for a number of reasons, one of which is fairly obvious imo. what if we get flatted by one of the random blinds? clearly our hand is not equal to 27 in this instance.

i'm also w/ adanthar and rekwob...random people shove random [censored] in the blinds here all the time.

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chewy ur right that if we get flatted our hand has postflop value but in this spot were almost never being flatted esp in a tournament with a good field like the 50 rebuy, for the most part people are generally not flatting when the effective stack is 15 blinds or so. Also a lot of good players, like intervention perhaps, that most people that are good and raising ~ 15 big blind stacks arent folding to a shove when they open raise since its "the perfect resteal stack."

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although intervention is bad i'd still fold to a shove from him. and yeah, i assume if he flats us he probably has us crushed and our hand has very little value. i was specifically talking about getting flatted by the blinds as the players(even some of the 'good' ones) in the 50r are not strong by any means and will make plenty of pf mistakes here vs our range.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

I am pretty sure an open push is significantly cEV+. I would raise/call. Fold to a reraise and call or to a very tight player. I think you see Axs, suited connectors and whatnot restealing here often enough. People just love to resteal in these online rebuys.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

1) 50r has a weak field overall
2) intervntion is not good

bad players flat all the time when they're arent supposed to with marginal holdings, so at really does not equal 72 at all.

raise folding to intervntion would be bad imo. if you aren't going to call anybody's shove, i think you're better off open shoving.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

With the hand face up its -EV to open push for sure. I think open pushing just sucks, especially with ATo because people will call with a range that is relatively close to the range they'd call with if our hand was face up. At least I find it very unlikely that open pushing will be anything more than very slight +EV.

I think open raising is normal, to like 1500 or something. I think folding to certain re raises is fine. My style is generally that I care less about an individual play than about the way that each of my plays relates to my entire range and etc. If I raise here and am calling reraises with something like 55-70% of my raising range, my opponents should be making a theoretical mistake every time they get out of line, whether I have a calling hand or not.

Of course it makes sense to alter your play for specific situations, thus making it more exploitable, but better suited for the given conditions. However I think open pushing is simply not very good, if my K+S chart says it's bad when you have over 12 BB's from this position, and we have over 16. Folding is obviously bad. The only option left is the very standard raise to 1500-1600. After that you can use your judgement whether to call a reraise, but I would never say that you must call one. Offhand you'll probably need like 40-41% equity to call a raise. If you think you have that against the reraiser's range, then go ahead and call. If not then fold. However I don't think it's some major mistake not to open push for 16x BB when all opponents but one have you covered and it's -EV with the hand face up.

Cliff Notes: I strongly prefer a standard 2.5x BB raise to open pushing. Fold if you want when reraised, or call if you think you are getting the correct equity.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

Also ATo never = 72o if you plan to raise fold for the following two reasons:

1. People call sometimes
2. Holding an ace and a ten makes it a bit less likely that an opponent will have a reraising hand, and you should steal the blinds preflop perhaps 2-4% more because of this factor alone.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

curtains i prefer an open as well but bb is known for being very spewy so i think we have to call his shove if we're going to open

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

Wait. You are getting 1.55-1 to call putting in 39% of the money if the reraise comes from someone not in the blinds who has you covered. I little less pot odds against a blind and a little more against a short stack. If a reraise is a resteal a significant percentage of the time, I would have a hard time folding this.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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curtains i prefer an open as well but bb is known for being very spewy so i think we have to call his shove if we're going to open

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Ok, like I said, if we think that our equity will be good enough against a certain player we can call their reraise. Once they go allin its just a simple math question and we try to put them on a range and determine whether or not we have the right odds.

I would almost never call a raise from the CO for example, assuming they are unknown/solid.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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Wait. You are getting 1.55-1 to call putting in 39% of the money if the reraise comes from someone not in the blinds who has you covered. I little less pot odds against a blind and a little more against a short stack. If a reraise is a resteal a significant percentage of the time, I would have a hard time folding this.

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If you think they are restealing a good % of the time and that your equity is better than whatever you need (40-41% or so, I'm just guessing?) then call!

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

So you think he stealthmunk mucks 55 and KQs here?

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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So you think he stealthmunk mucks 55 and KQs here?

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I have no idea who stealthmunk is. I got less lazy and decided to do the math. We need 40.5% against the CO or Button if they go allin. We need a bit more if the BB goes allin. Our equity against the following range:

55+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,AJo+

is 35%, thus making it a clear fold against that range. This leads me to wonder why you are asking about the KQs or 55 since they are pretty much irrelevant and villain has to be raising a lot lighter to make this a call. Also they may even decide to flat call some hands like JTs, QJs, KTs etc which are crucial for us to be in the reraising range.

We are 39.6% against the following range: 55+,A8s+,KJs+,QJs,AJo+,KQo


I crush you all at maths.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

i just ran a quick 66+ AJ+ range and it was like 32 or whatever, thought we needed 35%. good thing i dont claim to be good at maths, seems pretty hard.


What's the difference between 22-44 and 55 here tho?

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

Incidently, since an open push is slightly cEV+ and makes opponents play perfectly, and you have a close decision to a reraise on a raise, what about limpreraising?

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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Incidently, since an open push is slightly cEV+ and makes opponents play perfectly, and you have a close decision to a reraise on a raise, what about limpreraising?

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Why is open pushing slightly +cEV? Please prove that for me. I hate limp reraising.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

Open pushing is not +cEV here iam pretty positive.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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Incidently, since an open push is slightly cEV+ and makes opponents play perfectly, and you have a close decision to a reraise on a raise, what about limpreraising?

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Why is open pushing slightly +cEV? Please prove that for me. I hate limp reraising.

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Assume you are always called by TT+, AJ+ and no other hands. Each player gets one of those hands 39/661 of the time. Assume of 4 players one calls 22% of the time and all pots are 2-way. You steal 1300 when everyone folds. You win 23% of the time if called, for an expected loss of 4100 chips.

.78 * 1300 - .22 * 4100 = + 114 chips.

In practice, I think the push is a little more cEV+ than this, as your hand is not face up.

I think it is pretty obvious that pushing this hand into 4 players for 16xBB with ante is cEV+, since pushing into 6 players for 10xBB is cEV+.

As for the limp, you may provoke some weaker hands to push or raise. The problem is you have to play a flop a lot. Just through that out, since nothing else works that well.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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Incidently, since an open push is slightly cEV+ and makes opponents play perfectly, and you have a close decision to a reraise on a raise, what about limpreraising?

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Why is open pushing slightly +cEV? Please prove that for me. I hate limp reraising.

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Assume you are always called by TT+, AJ+ and no other hands. Each player gets one of those hands 39/661 of the time. Assume of 4 players one calls 22% of the time and all pots are 2-way. You steal 1300 when everyone folds. You win 23% of the time if called, for an expected loss of 4100 chips.

.78 * 1300 - .22 * 4100 = + 114 chips.

In practice, I think the push is a little more cEV+ than this, as your hand is not face up.

I think it is pretty obvious that pushing this hand into 4 players for 16xBB with ante is cEV+, since pushing into 6 players for 10xBB is cEV+.

As for the limp, you may provoke some weaker hands to push or raise. The problem is you have to play a flop a lot. Just through that out, since nothing else works that well.

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Not all pots will be 2 way and on average when you get the third caller you will definitely lose equity.


Also I'm pretty sure that your math is wrong, and that it should be -EV to push against that range.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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Incidently, since an open push is slightly cEV+ and makes opponents play perfectly, and you have a close decision to a reraise on a raise, what about limpreraising?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is open pushing slightly +cEV? Please prove that for me. I hate limp reraising.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assume you are always called by TT+, AJ+ and no other hands. Each player gets one of those hands 39/661 of the time. Assume of 4 players one calls 22% of the time and all pots are 2-way. You steal 1300 when everyone folds. You win 23% of the time if called, for an expected loss of 4100 chips.

.78 * 1300 - .22 * 4100 = + 114 chips.

In practice, I think the push is a little more cEV+ than this, as your hand is not face up.

I think it is pretty obvious that pushing this hand into 4 players for 16xBB with ante is cEV+, since pushing into 6 players for 10xBB is cEV+.

As for the limp, you may provoke some weaker hands to push or raise. The problem is you have to play a flop a lot. Just through that out, since nothing else works that well.

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Not all pots will be 2 way and on average when you get the third caller you will definitely lose equity.


Also I'm pretty sure that your math is wrong, and that it should be -EV to push against that range.

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I'm pretty sure it should be cEV+. You are only pushing into 4 players.

I know what I am doing with the math. If you think it is wrong, explain exactly what is wrong.

I agree that you lose equity with 2 callers. My assumption that TT+,AJ+ always call and those are the only hands that call is not far from reality, but is not entirely accurate and very unfavorable for the push.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

hey curtains, can u respond to what i asked earlier about how 22-44 would be different from 55 from the pushing perspective of the CO?

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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Incidently, since an open push is slightly cEV+ and makes opponents play perfectly, and you have a close decision to a reraise on a raise, what about limpreraising?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is open pushing slightly +cEV? Please prove that for me. I hate limp reraising.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assume you are always called by TT+, AJ+ and no other hands. Each player gets one of those hands 39/661 of the time. Assume of 4 players one calls 22% of the time and all pots are 2-way. You steal 1300 when everyone folds. You win 23% of the time if called, for an expected loss of 4100 chips.

.78 * 1300 - .22 * 4100 = + 114 chips.

In practice, I think the push is a little more cEV+ than this, as your hand is not face up.

I think it is pretty obvious that pushing this hand into 4 players for 16xBB with ante is cEV+, since pushing into 6 players for 10xBB is cEV+.

As for the limp, you may provoke some weaker hands to push or raise. The problem is you have to play a flop a lot. Just through that out, since nothing else works that well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not all pots will be 2 way and on average when you get the third caller you will definitely lose equity.


Also I'm pretty sure that your math is wrong, and that it should be -EV to push against that range.

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I'm pretty sure it should be cEV+. You are only pushing into 4 players.

I know what I am doing with the math. If you think it is wrong, explain exactly what is wrong.

I agree that you lose equity with 2 callers. My assumption that TT+,AJ+ always call and those are the only hands that call is not far from reality, but is not entirely accurate and very unfavorable for the push.

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I've done all this math a long time ago and based on what Ive done there is no way your math is correct. I will look at it closer to figure out why.

Oh jesus christ there are antes!!! For the love of God can people post this stuff? I know the Pokerstars structure changes in all kinds of tourneys. For instance in some tourneys there are no antes in this round and some there are. Because there was zero mention of antes in the OP, I just assumed there was no antes.

So yes, pushing is probably slightly +EV, and all of the math I gave above is probably wrong.

Again I don't play online tourneys very often, and perhaps there are others that aren't exactly positive of the structure of every single tournament on every site? Can we make it a habit to actually post the ante amounts? I know it changes in the Sunday Million and etc, and that there are slower events where the antes are real small and some where they are big.

Sorry for the rant just annoyed to have wasted my time. Just hate that everyone assumes that everyone knows what the antes are all the time. Knowing the antes is absolutely crucial to determining a play here and the difference between 25 chip, 50 chip , 75 chip and 0 chip antes make a huge difference. Not mentioning it just annoys the [censored] out of me.