Whiffed AQ vs a maniac LAG.
 

Villain here is a 70/17/2 maniacal Lagtard.

Yes this means he plays almost 3/4 of the hands he is dealt and raises/bet twice as much as he calls. Thats pretty seriously aggro.

So I figure that he sees lots of flops then breaks out the serious aggression when he catches ANY piece of the board, and againif he feels opponent is weak.

The rest of the table are playing like a group of cardigan constructors waiting to bust him when they pick up AA.

Party Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

SB: $95.69
BB: $44.79
Hero (UTG): $59
CO: $97.10
BTN: $134.29

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, CO calls $2, 3 folds

Flop: ($4.75) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $10</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $25</font>, CO calls $15

<font color="blue"> Big surprise - he has a little something or he thinks I am going to bend over for him - I c/r his flop bet and he thinks a good long while before calling.</font>

Turn: ($54.75) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $32 and is All-In</font>,

<font color="blue"> no messing about I am committed here and I must have some fold equity cos he snap calls my flop bet if he really has a hand I think - lets put him to the test.</font>



thoughts and comments on all streets appreciated.

Re: Whiffed AQ vs a maniac LAG.
 

I have trouble recommending trying to push these idiots off a hand.

honestly, these players won't fold to a push on the turn with nothing but a gutshot. Pushing him off an actual hand, and by actual hand I mean a pair of 2s or better, is a risky venture.

I'm sure this works sometimes. But I think its when he completely whiffs. (Does he call your CR if he whiffed?)

Re: Whiffed AQ vs a maniac LAG.
 

I don't like it. Mainiac tards will usually call you down fairly lite, plus he's getting 2.8:1 to call (or so).

I can see him calling with almost any PP, any T, and any FD.

Re: Whiffed AQ vs a maniac LAG.
 

this is pretty sexy when it works. I just don't think its going to work too often in a situation like this.

Re: Whiffed AQ vs a maniac LAG.
 

Do you think you have the best hand? Sometimes when I spaz out like this villain calls and I am like uhuh and then villain tables A6o. Usually that flop overbet means villain has connected with the flop in some way and the only hand you are barely ahead of is a gutshot and not by much. I think your equity vs a super wide range for villain is pretty bad on the flop. Obviously villain could decide that this is the day he folds midpair. If I had a draw like an openender I would probably just shove it in on the flop, because he won´t have a hand he can call with that often, but your equity when called isn´t that hot here.

Re: Whiffed AQ vs a maniac LAG.
 

This is just a giant spew IMO. Just c-bet and shut down if he does anything. Wait until you have at least a pair, then start doing this.

Re: Whiffed AQ vs a maniac LAG.
 

i would have loved your line if you actually had a hand

Re: Whiffed AQ vs a maniac LAG.
 

too expensive to check raise bluff maniacs. They arent likely to fold any piece . You just made an expensive bluff.

Re: Whiffed AQ vs a maniac LAG.
 

[ QUOTE ]
i would have loved your line if you actually had a hand

[/ QUOTE ]

I do have a hand here 29/30 times - meh.

BAsically I decided that either he was the type of lagtard to fold a small pocket/ or BP or a pair of 4's here - OR he was the type that's calling with his gs or fd (I'm ahead of both of those usually) or any pair - and then I still got 6 outs up my sleeve.

He tanks and eventually calls with his A4cc and I miss my 3 outs.

Still shortly afterwards the nit to his left leaves the table so I jump seats to catch the Jesus seat. Sadly I then run card dead and before very long he stacks off with KQ v AQ on a Q high flop.

Altho as it turns out after he quit the table the rest of the guys continued to play like nits apart from the guy that stacked him - we tangled a little and I got him calling off almost his entire stack very soon afterwards with Ace High on the river vs my flopped boat, and left the table up 100bb on the sesh - had I not pulled this huge bluff I doubt I'd have got as much action then...

Which got me thinking...

Is it better to tangle with a maniac and trade a stack or two hopefully getting the best of it and taking his chips before some nit does catch AA and wipes him out? Or is it better to wait for a hand and then push it hard?

If a maniac sees a nit raise it's relatively easy for him to get out of the way unless he flops goot. If you get in there and mix it up a bit with marginal hands maniac is not so sure whether you have it or not - and also if he does empty his pockets to some other guy at the table they might in turn peg you as a nutter and overplay TPTK in a few hands time for 150bb+

I think in future I will be going for these peoples balls more often - hey I have a solid bankroll I can handle a little variance - I will report results back some time later.

Re: Whiffed AQ vs a maniac LAG.
 

Either B/F or C/F flop, you'll get his money when you have a hand. You just need to wait for a better spot.

Re: Whiffed AQ vs a maniac LAG.
 

If you expect him to have no hand here most of the time (after betting $10 on the flop) why don't you wait for middle pair or something?? Now you're completely dead vs. the 15% of his range that has hit.

Also, if you want the image of a looser, more aggressive player by showing down some bluffs, make it smaller bluffs. Why would you spew an entire stack when people will also notice you bluffing in a spot where it isn't going to cost you $50 if it fails.
And even better: you might try semi-bluffing some spots (maybe with slightly bad draws) as people won't notice you had 35% equity when you made your bet.

My general opinion is that you should make +EV plays in the hand itself, do not try to reason bad, spewy plays into +EV plays by considering future hands.
Save plays for image reasons for spots where you can choose between two lines and where it costs you very little EV.

Re: Whiffed AQ vs a maniac LAG.
 

matrix he just put you on a draw and called.

This hand is obviously terrible you bluff off your entire stack with AQ high only to get stacked by a pair of 4s. I'm sure you know this hand is bad. Just because villian plays awful doesn't mean you should do similar :P.

Re: Whiffed AQ vs a maniac LAG.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing him off an actual hand, and by actual hand I mean a pair of 2s or better, is a risky venture.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
He tanks and eventually calls with his A4cc (for a pair of 4s) and I miss my 3 outs.


[/ QUOTE ]

I hate that I was right. But I have to admit, Matrix, if I was at the table with you I would be shaking my head. I see people constantly try to bluff these guys. I don't get it. They'll call their whole stack off if they only have a gutshot... these type call with anything. I've seen these guys with 500bb stacks because people keep betting into them 3 streets with nothing thinking the guy's going to fold.

Here's a double barrel I made yesterday--
I raise in MP with 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

a maniac minraises me from UTG. I call.

FLOP - A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

he now checks. I bet pot. He waits a long time, then calls. (don't ask me why, it doesn't feel like a slowplay... I sense weakness)

TURN 4x
he checks. I bet 2/3 pot. He thinks and calls.

River 3x
he checks. I seriously consider a third barrel. I know hes weak but I've given up..... I check. wait for it...

He turns over JQos. So, not only was JQos a hand worthy of reraising with... he put in about 40-50 bbs on a gutshot. You can't bluff someone who is too stupid to fold.

Re: Whiffed AQ vs a maniac LAG.
 

Your turn bet is nothing unless it's a thin vbet, you have ZERO (repeat, ZERO) FE here against a better hand from villain.

Re: Whiffed AQ vs a maniac LAG.
 

In a vacuum my big bluff hand vs a calling station any piece moran looks pretty dumb I am not arguing with that.

but what I am getting at is this...

Party Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

BTN: $62.10
SB: $92.05
BB: $124.53
UTG: $47.75
MP: $55.79
Hero (CO): $110.30

Pre-Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $2</font>, MP calls $2, Hero calls $2, 3 folds

Flop: ($6.75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
UTG checks, MP checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $4.75</font>, UTG calls $4.75, MP folds

Turn: ($16.25) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $6.50</font>, UTG calls $6.50

River: ($29.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $25</font>, UTG calls $25

Results: $79.25 Pot ($3 Rake)
UTG mucked Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a pair of Sixes) and LOST (-$38.25 NET)

in this hand villain was the guy that stacked the maniac - I've taken a chunk of his stack already and built the rest of it up by running over the nits. I'm running something like 35/27/5 at this point. Just raising in good spots and CBetting - I think I won one small SD.

This villain I have in my db as a regular 20/12/2 mcTAG or thereabouts.

I don't think there is anyway at all (perhaps I am wrong) that this guy calls off almost his whole stack with AQhigh here if I don't SD my huge bluff from earlier.

I DO think my bluff is +EV immediately or at least not hugely -EV immediately cos this maniac is the type to call with just a gs draw or Axhh which I usually have dominated.
OR he'll be the type that sees my serious aggro and eventually folds his A2. I do know for sure he's not thinking much.

[ QUOTE ]
And even better: you might try semi-bluffing some spots (maybe with slightly bad draws) as people won't notice you had 35% equity when you made your bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

here's a rough guesstimate of a range.

basically any pair, any ace, any broadway, a bunch of gutshots and some sc's that made a pair.

Board: 2h 4h Td 8s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.712% 41.67% 01.04% 7756 193.50 { AsQc }
Hand 1: 57.288% 56.25% 01.04% 10469 193.50 { 22+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 53s+, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, J9o+, T8o+, 98o, 86o+, 75o+, 64o+, 53o+ }

If this range is close to correct and he will call with all of it (and I have zero FE) there's a chunk of dead money in this pot already ...

Maybe my equity is way worse here and I am a 25/75 dog overall - (vs his actual 2 cards I am ~7/93 dog as it happened tho him having Ax and paired his kicker is about as bad as it'd get without me drawing dead).

[ QUOTE ]
Wait until you have at least a pair, then start doing this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can post sessions where I thought like that and missed every flop for 90 mins and got run over 1 preflop raise at a time. I did think a little before I raise his flop bet (honest) and I figured that if the turn bricked he might call down my planned turn bluff with a fd which would have been very +EV. Sometimes (and maybe I am off the wall and this is definitely not one of those times) there is a +EV move you can make without a pair.

Maybe after maniac is gone the table breaks and my golden image comes to nothing but if they sit a while and think that I too am a moran when in fact I pull a bluff like that ~once a week or so and almost always my bets mean what they say they are then I am setting myself up for good times.

If the table had split after this lag left and I had left as well I would probably have thought to myself "that was a terrible play - lets not do that again, back to the grind"

I destroyed this table of nits for 20 mins after my bluff went down so thought maybe this wasn't such a bad play after all.

Yes I agree that it's better it make big semi bluffs with hands that have solid equity values - but the cards don't always drop that way. I just realised that I was tired of sitting like a nit waiting for the one big hand to bust the maniac and being easy to play against and instead went and tried to make it happen, perhaps I should and could have made "better" bluffs, if that flop had been 24Q and not 24T I play it the same way and probably never post the hand.

I got lucky in that one way or another things worked out and I ended up booking a win. I am just wondering if in part I helped make my own luck.

Re: Whiffed AQ vs a maniac LAG.
 

Why waste your time bluffing this type of player? Seems like the exact opposite of what you should do to make $. You're overthinking this.