NL200 overpair against TAG
 

Villain is tag; i am also tag.

How should this be played to the check raise on the flop? Do you guys like a shove, or a call then shove if a safe card hits turn? Does anyone like a fold on flop or turn (depending on what he bets)?

Poker Stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (UTG): $200.05
MP: $108.60
CO: $62.40
BTN: $48.05
SB: $88
BB: $194

Pre-Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $8</font>, MP calls $8, 3 folds, BB calls $6

Flop: ($25) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $18</font>, MP folds, <font color="red">BB raises to $44</font>, <font color="red">Hero ?

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

i push every time
if theres another line i'd like to know

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
i push every time
if theres another line i'd like to know

[/ QUOTE ]

calling flop with the intention of shoving a blank turn or folding if the turn is a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and he bets.

best line is to call and spike a queen obv.

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i push every time
if theres another line i'd like to know

[/ QUOTE ]

calling flop with the intention of shoving a blank turn or folding if the turn is a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and he bets.


[/ QUOTE ]

sounds very exploitable.

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

Exploitable how? In case he wants to c/r bluff with air and then only bluff when the turn is a heart/A of non-hearts?

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i push every time
if theres another line i'd like to know

[/ QUOTE ]

calling flop with the intention of shoving a blank turn or folding if the turn is a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and he bets.


[/ QUOTE ]

sounds very exploitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf are you talkin about

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

Stacking off here with QQ every time is pretty damn exploitable

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

meh i shove.

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Stacking off here with QQ every time is pretty damn exploitable

[/ QUOTE ]

so is not stacking off with QQ

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Exploitable how? In case he wants to c/r bluff with air and then only bluff when the turn is a heart/A of non-hearts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hypothetical...

Poker Stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (UTG): $200.05
MP: $108.60
CO: $62.40
BTN: $48.05
SB: $88
BB: $194

Pre-Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $8</font>, MP calls $8, 3 folds, BB calls $6

Flop: ($25) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $18</font>, MP folds, <font color="red">BB raises to $44</font>, Hero calls 26

Turn: ($113) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB bets $50, Hero folds

This is what I mean by exploitable

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Stacking off here with QQ every time is pretty damn exploitable

[/ QUOTE ]

Stacking off with what is almost always the best hand with the most equity is exploitable?

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i push every time
if theres another line i'd like to know

[/ QUOTE ]

calling flop with the intention of shoving a blank turn or folding if the turn is a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and he bets.


[/ QUOTE ]

sounds very exploitable.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wtf? Because villain can c/r the flop and bluff us 20% of the time when a heart falls on the turn? There's nothing wrong with putting villain on set/fd/air here. And 3-ways air probably makes up for a small portion. Thus if the turn comes a heart we should fold.

Calling and getting it in on a blank turn is my standard line. I don't think folding the flop is that big of a mistake against most 200nl tags, if a mistake at all (assuming he's more like 17/13 than 19/17). I think we can put him pretty much exactly on fd/set which is why I like calling seeing what the turn brings best.

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wtf? Because villain can c/r the flop and bluff us 20% of the time when a heart falls on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, i wasnt talking about getting check-raised, i even posted an example.

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

I call and shove non [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]/J turns.

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I call and shove non [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]/J turns.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wtf? Because villain can c/r the flop and bluff us 20% of the time when a heart falls on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, i wasnt talking about getting check-raised, i even posted an example.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol I think you need to learn to read.

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

Ok,I took a quick reading comprehension course &amp; now I see what everyone's talking about... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Because villain can c/r the flop and bluff us 20% of the time when a heart falls on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, why not? I would, you probably would, most 2p2ers have this weapon, why can't your opponent?

"Because he's a random drooler?" Well if he's a random drooler, then he can have A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] here and lead any turn, too. Now if that turn comes baby heart then you just folded the best hand in a big pot with position. Nice.

Plus if you're folding heart turns you also should fold Aces most of the time too.

So by calling the flop with the intention of folding a lot of turns, IMO you get exploited by pretty much everyone with TAG stats.

I'm throwing this out there because a lot pf people probably disagree &amp; I want to hear why. Don't let it be because I have ~250 posts, tho. That's all I ask...

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

I do something like 25% raise flop and 75% call flop and push turn.

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

I shove the flop. He'll call and you're ahead a lot.

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

Twister,

If we're calling the flop with the intention of folding the turn on a heart we're still only folding 20% of the time on the turn. I don't think that's exploitable. Besides it's hard to know for our opponents we'll take this line with QQ and a fd is also in our range.

In this hand a random tag c/r a 3-ways flop. What would you put him on? I would say set/fd and sometimes but not often air. Against this range we're pretty much dead if the turn is a heart. If we're not folding on a heart on the turn calling the flop kinda sucks (shoving is better).

[ QUOTE ]
Plus if you're folding heart turns you also should fold Aces most of the time too.

[/ QUOTE ]
True.

[ QUOTE ]
So by calling the flop with the intention of folding a lot of turns, IMO you get exploited by pretty much everyone with TAG stats.


[/ QUOTE ]
You think those tags will raise air often in 3-way pots? Ime a standard ssnl tag doesn't even raise air that often hu.

[ QUOTE ]
So by calling the flop with the intention of folding a lot of turns, IMO you get exploited by pretty much everyone with TAG stats.


[/ QUOTE ]
We're not folding alot of turns. And I think us folding alot on the flop is more likely to get exploited here than us folding alot on the turn, because that's where we'll be folding the most usually. Once we get to the turn we're not folding alot.


Basically we don't have to worry about getting exploited before anybody exploit us. If we have reason to believe someone is we play back.

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

I guess I'm curious what you define as Air. Do you mean 1-pair hands, or less than that? BC I see a lot of hands like AJ here, even worse like KJ or QJ.

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm curious what you define as Air. Do you mean 1-pair hands, or less than that? BC I see a lot of hands like AJ here, even worse like KJ or QJ.

[/ QUOTE ]
I define air as overs or crappy PPs. Or worse. I don't think a random tag will raise AJ or Jx often at all.

Re: NL200 overpair against TAG
 

sometimes shove, sometimes call and shove blank turns. depends on what i estimate his various frequencies to be