NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

Since TT asked for a separate thread to discuss the state of NYC poker rather than having that discussion in the shooting thread, here it is. I'll start off by asking: How is security handled at OTB parlors? When was the last time there was a robbery at an OTB?

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

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Since TT asked for a separate thread to discuss the state of NYC poker rather than having that discussion in the shooting thread, here it is. I'll start off by asking: How is security handled at OTB parlors? When was the last time there was a robbery at an OTB?

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http://news.google.com/archivesearch?hl=...59-1&tab=wn

Also lets discuss NY State Lottery. Its a game of chance, marketed to poor, destitute and undereducated NY'ers who have zero control over their destiny. Poker attracts educated and financially secure people - people who understand probability and wish to control their own destiny.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

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Also lets discuss NY State Lottery. Its a game of chance, marketed to poor, destitute and undereducated NY'ers who have zero control over their destiny. Poker attracts educated and financially secure people - people who understand probability and wish to control their own destiny.

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How long has it been since you've actually been in a poker room? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

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Also lets discuss NY State Lottery. Its a game of chance, marketed to poor, destitute and undereducated NY'ers who have zero control over their destiny. Poker attracts educated and financially secure people - people who understand probability and wish to control their own destiny.

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How long has it been since you've actually been in a poker room? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Actually, compared to 7-8 years ago when I first started playing in card rooms, the demographic has changed substantially. Sure, you still have the degenerates, but an increasing percentage of players are indeed professionals enjoying the game as a hobby.

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I don't think OTBs are comparable places because these are legal establishments... Also there are way more OTBs than poker clubs, I would think. I also think that the fact that a poker club is illegal in NYC makes it more attractive for criminal activity. I know some club owners won't report a robbery because they don't want the police to know of their location.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

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I know some club owners won't report a robbery because they don't want the police to know of their location.

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Your KNOW this? prove it. I dont think you can. Edgar went to jail for calling the police during an armed robbery, there is far more evidence that suggests club owners encourage police cooperation than any anecdotal evidence that suggests owners will ignore the safety of their patrons by not communicating with the police department after a robbery.

Seriously... blanket statements about something you guess is true only creates more problems. Sure its possible that there is a bad egg in the community, but the vast majority of operators have been on the level.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

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Also lets discuss NY State Lottery. Its a game of chance, marketed to poor, destitute and undereducated NY'ers who have zero control over their destiny. Poker attracts educated and financially secure people - people who understand probability and wish to control their own destiny.

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How long has it been since you've actually been in a poker room? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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TT is very correct with respect to the NYC poker scene. Before leaving a game at the place that was recently robbed, my table included a couple of lawyers, a member of the Marines, a relatively famous screen and TV actor, and a judge.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

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Also lets discuss NY State Lottery. Its a game of chance, marketed to poor, destitute and undereducated NY'ers who have zero control over their destiny. Poker attracts educated and financially secure people - people who understand probability and wish to control their own destiny.

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How long has it been since you've actually been in a poker room? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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TT is very correct with respect to the NYC poker scene. Before leaving a game at the place that was recently robbed, my table included a couple of lawyers, a member of the Marines, a relatively famous screen and TV actor, and a judge.

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And I'm sure that is a fair representation of every poker game in town. And I'm sure that the Judge, marine, Lawyers, and actor never purchased a lottery ticket.

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Edgar went to jail for calling the police during an armed robbery

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Doubt he knew what was coming but that's neither here not there...

************

I don't think you're going to have a problem convincing the people who frequent these forums that poker isn't gambling etc. But it doesn't matter at all. The people who need to be convinced are the legislators. Then they have to

a. not sell their convictions to lobbyists
b. care

I think the likelihood of either of these things happening is lottery-winning low.

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Also lets discuss NY State Lottery. Its a game of chance, marketed to poor, destitute and undereducated NY'ers who have zero control over their destiny. Poker attracts educated and financially secure people - people who understand probability and wish to control their own destiny.

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How long has it been since you've actually been in a poker room? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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TT is very correct with respect to the NYC poker scene. Before leaving a game at the place that was recently robbed, my table included a couple of lawyers, a member of the Marines, a relatively famous screen and TV actor, and a judge.

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And I'm sure that is a fair representation of every poker game in town. And I'm sure that the Judge, marine, Lawyers, and actor never purchased a lottery ticket.

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Seriously, have you ever played at a club in this city? The clientelle of many of these places is mostly professional types who like to play after work. Midtown Manhattan is the biggest business district in the entire hemisphere, and Wall Street is just a couple of miles away. You'll see more suits playing at some times than people not in suits.

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And people wearing suist can't be degenerate gamblers with bad credit and financial problems and flawed concept of probability.

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Edgar went to jail for calling the police during an armed robbery

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Doubt he knew what was coming but that's neither here not there...


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And so I don't waste another post, TT's point on the lottery and other state-sanctioned gambling that often feeds on those members of society who can least afford it -- the point is well taken but also explicitly exempt from the ban by the NYS Constitution. God save the legislature and their revenue streams.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

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I know some club owners won't report a robbery because they don't want the police to know of their location.

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Your KNOW this? prove it. I dont think you can. Edgar went to jail for calling the police during an armed robbery, there is far more evidence that suggests club owners encourage police cooperation than any anecdotal evidence that suggests owners will ignore the safety of their patrons by not communicating with the police department after a robbery.

Seriously... blanket statements about something you guess is true only creates more problems. Sure its possible that there is a bad egg in the community, but the vast majority of operators have been on the level.

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I was a dealer for a few clubs in NYC and out in LI. You can private message me for that info. The stories about Edgar calling the police after getting robbed didn't help. I don't know why you're so antagonistic all the time...

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And people wearing suist can't be degenerate gamblers with bad credit and financial problems and flawed concept of probability.

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psandman,

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but have you actually played in any of the Manhattan clubs in the last couple of years? If so, which ones (since they're all closed anyway)? My observations are based on my play at PlaySation, *****, ****** and others during the last 4 or so years when I lived in Manhattan.

mod note - no names please. Playstation is fair game because its been discussed in the press

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

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And people wearing suist can't be degenerate gamblers with bad credit and financial problems and flawed concept of probability.

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psandman,

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but have you actually played in any of the Manhattan clubs in the last couple of years? If so, which ones (since they're all closed anyway)? My observations are based on my play at PlaySation, *****, **** and others during the last 4 or so years when I lived in Manhattan.

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No i haven't but the point is that poker is not some haven for the educated gnetleman gambler as opposed to the lottery being for degenerates. I know people who have played in NYC clubs during the time frame yiou describe. Some were educated professionals, but some were clueless degenerate gamblers, and and among them you might not be able to tell the difference from casual conversation, or by the way they dress.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

I agree with the above, we are vastly overstating the caliber of player in these games. I don't doubt some are well educated/solid players/people with smart bankroll management, but to say that poker is an attraction to this demographic is obscenely wrong. Generally, poker clubs are marketing just as much to degenerate gamblers who don't know the game.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

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I know some club owners won't report a robbery because they don't want the police to know of their location.

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Your KNOW this? prove it. I dont think you can. Edgar went to jail for calling the police during an armed robbery, there is far more evidence that suggests club owners encourage police cooperation than any anecdotal evidence that suggests owners will ignore the safety of their patrons by not communicating with the police department after a robbery.

Seriously... blanket statements about something you guess is true only creates more problems. Sure its possible that there is a bad egg in the community, but the vast majority of operators have been on the level.

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I was a dealer for a few clubs in NYC and out in LI. You can private message me for that info. The stories about Edgar calling the police after getting robbed didn't help. I don't know why you're so antagonistic all the time...

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avoid making false statements based on what you assume is true, not what you can prove is true, and you wont ever see my antagonistic side. A simple change of wording to say "I always assumed" rather than "I know" solves your problem. I just got off the phone with one of the investors in the room that was robbed and we were talking about your blanket statement, he agrees thats the farthest thing from the truth. Even back in Playstation days they called the cops to stop a fight - life and safety is far more valuable that money, if the club owners dont provide a safe environment there will be no players. There is a trust relationship between the house and the player, it must be maintained at all costs.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

Can everyone please stop straying from the point of this thread? Poker is for all people; the law does not discriminate between "uneducated, degenerate gamblers" and "professionals."

I propose that someone who writes very well draft a letter that we can all sign and send to the proper people (including Mayor Bloomberg, an avid player himself). What happened to Frank is a tragedy of major proportions; however, what makes it even worse is that IT COULD BE PREVENTED. Of course there is inherent risk in everything one does - simply existing is dangerous. Yet nobody can argue that a legal poker club is not substantially safer than an illegal poker club. A legal club would attract real business/businessmen, who would invest in security and who wouldn't be overlooked by police (calling the police wouldn't even be an issue, though I can't believe it is now). Competition would make sure that only the best remain in business. (In this case, however, I wouldn't necessarily oppose government-run establishments).

The recent busts/robberies/murder provide us an opportunity for a serious solution and we must strike while the iron is hot.

P.S. If another non-New Yorker tells me to "suck it up just drive to AC" one more time I'm going to freaking explode...

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

Suck it up and drive to AC...

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http://www.lancs.ac.uk/ug/eardley/atom_bomb_2.jpg

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

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Can everyone please stop straying from the point of this thread? Poker is for all people; the law does not discriminate between "uneducated, degenerate gamblers" and "professionals."


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That is a bit naive. Fighting a policy battle on behalf of lowlife degenerate gamblers would not be the same as fighting one on behalf of a group that included well-to-do white collar professionals. In that sense, the demographic of the player base matters.

That said, it's a steep uphill battle either way. Everyone should just suck it up and move to CA.

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Funny how he thinks creating a petition will change things.

If poker comes to NYC a few more events have to happen. First the slots have to open in Aqueduct and Belmont. Then the tracks (whether the NYRA or whoever else gets them) have to start singing the blues how the horsemen and the government can make more money if only casino gambling were legalized. Then there has to be a debate about how people in poker games can or can't behave themselves (more will say can't), a public referendum (or propostion on the ballot) then maybe someone will move.

I expect there to be legalized poker in New York, just give it five to fifteen years, when the government needs a lot more revenue.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

Bloomberg has little control over this. Serious solution involves Albany and possibly an amendment to the NYS Constitution. Good luck with that.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

It is rather laughable to think that writing a petition will accomplish anything. Underground poker is illegal, plan on it staying that way. Seems naive to think that just because a group of underground players who don't want to drive to AC complain, that laws will be changed. I'm not really sure that legalizing it is any sort of great solution. If it's legalized, what prevents it from being overexposed in the form of being on every other block?

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

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Poker attracts educated and financially secure people - people who understand probability and wish to control their own destiny.

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lollllllllllllll

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

Player: Please legalize
Politician: Why?
Player: Because it is safer if it is legal
Politician: But it is unsafe for my political career if I vote to legalize

Note: 'Player' can be a poker player, an IV drug user, or a prostitute. Same argument. Same response from the politico.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

Legalization has little chance of occuring, in my opion. As suggested by others, politicians have no big upside in supporting legalization, and a major risk of being seen as supporting degenerate gamblers. Yes, yes, I know that's not what most of us are but that's how I think we'll be perceived. I wrote an opinion piece in the Times about the Playstation (only after it had been closed, of course) and pushed the upside, decent players, regular folks, etc, but I doubt if anyone was particularly influenced by it (except for players who gave me nice pats on the back).

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe something sane could come from Frank's death. I certainly hope so, he was such a decent guy. Seeing his picture in the papers makes me very sad and I wish something good could result from something so bad.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

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It is rather laughable to think that writing a petition will accomplish anything. Underground poker is illegal, plan on it staying that way. Seems naive to think that just because a group of underground players who don't want to drive to AC complain, that laws will be changed. I'm not really sure that legalizing it is any sort of great solution. If it's legalized, what prevents it from being overexposed in the form of being on every other block?

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But its not really illegal right? Its just illegal for the house to profit. What are the chances of getting some sort of exemption or small poker-related exception to allow businessmen/women to open poker rooms.

Things like clubs where you pay a membership fee, or where you pay a cover to get in, or something along those lines. It seems like the approach with the best hope is to take small steps in the right direction. Blanket gambling (ala casinos) is unlikely to ever happen in NYC, but thats not really what we care about. Its also something thats hard to make arguments for.

I'm very aware that I know next to nothing about the current legal situation and future road blocks to legal poker rooms.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

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I know some club owners won't report a robbery because they don't want the police to know of their location.

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Your KNOW this? prove it. I dont think you can. Edgar went to jail for calling the police during an armed robbery, there is far more evidence that suggests club owners encourage police cooperation than any anecdotal evidence that suggests owners will ignore the safety of their patrons by not communicating with the police department after a robbery.

Seriously... blanket statements about something you guess is true only creates more problems. Sure its possible that there is a bad egg in the community, but the vast majority of operators have been on the level.

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TT,

Please document one case where the operators of a poker room called the police after a robbery where no one was hurt.

Please note that it must be after the robbery. Calling the cops when your life is on the line doesn't mean squat.

It's intuitively obvious that illegal cash businesses don't call the police when they get robbed. You're the one who has to prove that the operators of illegal card rooms involve the police after the fact.

This is the issue with all the posts from the shooting thread comparing non-casino games with legally sanctioned games. You can't walk in any casino or casino area in the US withoug seeing a cop or licensed security guard. Illegal games don't have that.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

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Please document one case where the operators of a poker room called the police after a robbery where no one was hurt.

Please note that it must be after the robbery. Calling the cops when your life is on the line doesn't mean squat.


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If they always call the cops during the robbery (which seems to be the pattern) its hard to show times when they've done it afterwards.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

I work in NYC and live over the river in NJ. I've never looked for an underground club because I always worried about not just my own safety, but the chance of it being busted. Yeah, I know the drive to AC is over 2 hours, but I know walking into my favorite casino the only way I'm losing my money is bad play, NOT robbery or more likey, police seizure.

Legalization is far away I feel. Short of the family of the victim pushing for legalization on the news, I don't think anything else will get poker passed. I just never understood why OTB is alright, but poker is some mystical, illegial thing.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

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TT,

Please document one case where the operators of a poker room called the police after a robbery where no one was hurt.

Please note that it must be after the robbery. Calling the cops when your life is on the line doesn't mean squat.

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I already did. National, upper east side. Nobody was hurt, the room's operator called 911 during the robbery - DURING, you know how dangerous that is if he was caught? We can discuss this one because it was in the newspapers already, we cannot discuss the times in this forum when it wasn't mentioned in the press.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

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TT,

Please document one case where the operators of a poker room called the police after a robbery where no one was hurt.

Please note that it must be after the robbery. Calling the cops when your life is on the line doesn't mean squat.

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I already did. National, upper east side. Nobody was hurt, the room's operator called 911 during the robbery - DURING, you know how dangerous that is if he was caught? We can discuss this one because it was in the newspapers already, we cannot discuss the times in this forum when it wasn't mentioned in the press.

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He asks you to document a case where the police are called after the robbery when no one was hurt, and you say you did by listing a case where you say he called police during the robbery. Why because you think its more dangerous to call during a robbery than after (and you criticize others for making assumptions).

Here is the point. During an armed robbery you should be concerned for the life and saftey of yourself and the others in the room. therefore calling the police during a robbery is an instance where you put yourself in legal jeopardy (and in NY is relatively minor legal jeopardy) in an effort to protect your life and the lives of the players.

But after a robbery in which no one was hurt, there is no life threatening emergency any more. Calling the Police at this point and putting yourself in legal jeopardy offers you no direct benefit (yes there is the indirect benefit that if they catch the guy and he goes to prison he can't rob your game anymore )

It would seem to me that calling the police during a robbery is a no brainer anyone given teh opportunbity should do so, But calling after the fact (where there is noone hurt) is not a no-brainer. Many operators aren't going to call the police because there is a much bigger downside to calling the police than not calling the police. This is true not just of poker but all illegal activities.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

psandman:

You don't know enough the situation, google it for more details because there were numerous news reports - its not what you assume. Edgar was the card rooms operator, he had a rap sheet a mile long - he knew he was going to see jail time when he called the cops. Last I heard he is still in jail, he was arrested 6 or so months ago.

Since this was the only time I recall (and I could be wrong - I might not remember another time) where the robbery was mentioned in the news this is unfortunately the only example I can give in a public forum like 2+2 where millions (yes, believe it or not - millions) of people visit and read the posts (including the NY Times and ABC News who are watching these threads), unfortunately you have to take my word for it that this is the standard operating policy for most owners in Manhattan.

I spoke to the former operator of a room that was raided 2 years ago yesterday, I was there in the room when he called the police to stop a fight - ah the good old days [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

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this is the standard operating policy for most owners in Manhattan.



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To call the cops after a robbery where nobody was injured?

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

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this is the standard operating policy for most owners in Manhattan.



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To call the cops after a robbery where nobody was injured?

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To call the cops during. Remember this has happened only a handful of times, nobody - including the room operators has too much experience with robberies.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

No offense intended, but I'm not sure I see the point of this argument. Whether or not the cops are called after a robbery in which nobody has been hurt does not deeply concern me. I'm interested in safety before all that, and if I think the guys running my club have my (and their) safety front and center I'm happy. I've been to places (no longer open) where I thought safety was iffy, and I've been to places where safety was clearly a high priority. Obviously those are the ones I went back to.

Re: NYC poker: safety and legalization
 

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To call the cops during. Remember this has happened only a handful of times, nobody - including the room operators has too much experience with robberies.

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Count your blessings. I've always been confused that these NYC threads seem to be totally focused on the cops busting the game. The big fear around here is that the bad guys stick up the game. Please note the general tendency to never call the cops unless the robbery is still in progress in areas where poker is somewhat to totally illegal.

A thread you started

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...page=0&vc=1

Two related incidents in SC

http://www.upforanything.net/poker/archives/002220.html

A general search on poker robberies

http://www.google.com/search?q=poker+rob...amp;startPage=1

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this is the standard operating policy for most owners in Manhattan.



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To call the cops after a robbery where nobody was injured?

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To call the cops during. Remember this has happened only a handful of times, nobody - including the room operators has too much experience with robberies.

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But I'm not disagreeing with about that they would call the police during a robbery if they could. That scenario makes sense. getting arrested for the relatively small offenses involved here is much less severe then getting shot. No question.

Thats not the point we were making. And I'm not really sure why you don't see the difference between the two scenarios.

And robberies at underground clubs are not that rare. They aren't everyday experiences, but even in upstate NY I knew of several robberies, and heard first hand accounts of robberies going back many many years.

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this is the standard operating policy for most owners in Manhattan.



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To call the cops after a robbery where nobody was injured?

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To call the cops during. Remember this has happened only a handful of times, nobody - including the room operators has too much experience with robberies.

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But I'm not disagreeing with about that they would call the police during a robbery if they could. That scenario makes sense. getting arrested for the relatively small offenses involved here is much less severe then getting shot. No question.

Thats not the point we were making. And I'm not really sure why you don't see the difference between the two scenarios.

And robberies at underground clubs are not that rare. They aren't everyday experiences, but even in upstate NY I knew of several robberies, and heard first hand accounts of robberies going back many many years.

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psandman - this is a thread about NYC and NYC only. Upstate, Long Island, and home games are all different situations. i have spoken with three news outlets in 48 hours, all they are concerned with is the robberies in NY.

And yes, they are statistically rare in NYC. Two so far in 2007, thats a better record than some banks.