NL25 How toi keep Tag in
 

This hand I wasn't sure about whole way. Probably should have 3bet Preflop but he isn't calling with a worse ace ever. I knew if I raised on flop no way he commits with a worse hand (as in non combo draw) so I called. On turn I call again since board paired and his range is most likely an ace. River is a Q and game me some cause for concern but I still did not think I could fold as I felt he would still valuebet AJ,ATs and maybe even bet a busted draw thinking I would fold my ace that should never be this strong since I did not threebet. My range for him after flop was AJ+,ATs+,98s. Who still calls this river given this passive line?

Full Tilt Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

UTG: $37.80
Hero (CO): $77.55
BTN: $9.35
SB: $24.75
BB: $22.85

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Khttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif dealt to Hero (CO)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $1</font>, Hero calls $1, 3 folds

Flop: ($2.35) Ahttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $2</font>, Hero calls $2

Turn: ($6.35) 8http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $4</font>, Hero calls $4

River: ($14.35) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $12</font>, Hero calls $12

Re: NL25 How toi keep Tag in
 

I hate your line here. It seems like you are seeing monsters under the bed. Dont assume that because you raise it shuts out all worse hands, theres no reason to think that. 3 bet this pf, definitely raise this flop. If you want you can then check the turn for pot control and either call a river bet or if he checks you can bet. If he was looser the appropriate action is to just bet/bet/bet f/t/r.

Re: NL25 How toi keep Tag in
 

river is a must call. You're way too passive with AK here, alot of worse hands will come along, despite your read. Raise preflop. As played raise the flop, there's alot of value to be made here

Re: NL25 How toi keep Tag in
 

FWIW villain is hennerz.

Re: NL25 How toi keep Tag in
 

raise pf, raise flop, raise turn FOR GODS SAKE JUST RAISE SOMEWHERE!!! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: NL25 How toi keep Tag in
 

Raise flop because you can represent any number of draws or sets or air and if he doesn't have an ace he's gonna shut down eventually anyways. I like preflop.

Re: NL25 How toi keep Tag in
 

Ok so if I raise flop then he is probably calling with this range which means we flip. Unless he will call with the AJ combos which I don't think he would if I raised flop. He wasn't aware who I was and at the time I was running ~17VPIP. So should I still raise and be happy to get my money in or should I wait till a safe turn then go for it?

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.609% 49.29% 00.32% 7319 48.00 { AhKc }
Hand 1: 50.391% 50.07% 00.32% 7435 48.00 { 88, 55, AQs, 9d8d, AQo }

Disclaimer: This is not his flop betting range but his flop calling a raise range. His betting range is obv wider.

Edit: We were also semi-deep here as well.

Re: NL25 How toi keep Tag in
 

looks ok given your read.

Re: NL25 How toi keep Tag in
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok so if I raise flop then he is probably calling with this range which means we flip. Unless he will call with the AJ combos which I don't think he would if I raised flop. He wasn't aware who I was and at the time I was running ~17VPIP. So should I still raise and be happy to get my money in or should I wait till a safe turn then go for it?

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.609% 49.29% 00.32% 7319 48.00 { AhKc }
Hand 1: 50.391% 50.07% 00.32% 7435 48.00 { 88, 55, AQs, 9d8d, AQo }

Disclaimer: This is not his flop betting range but his flop calling a raise range. His betting range is obv wider.

Edit: We were also semi-deep here as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are more flush draws in his range than just 98d.

Re: NL25 How toi keep Tag in
 

more then 9d8d that call my flop raise? I am not sure of how loose he is UTG.

Re: NL25 How toi keep Tag in
 

Against a 2p2 villain calling AK is ok occusionally for some meta game purposes and to confuzzle him.

You do, however, need to raise somewhere. Flop looks good cause he will play back at you or at least call with most aces (no way he places a 2p2er on AK here normnally).

Like thac said too you are representing a lot of hands when you raise the flop.

Re: NL25 How toi keep Tag in
 

Ok so how much should I raise flop for? My default is around 60% of pot.

Re: NL25 How toi keep Tag in
 

Grunch.

Another one of those depends type hands... so let's talk about it.

You said your range for him after the flop was AJ+, ATs+, 98s.

Given that range it is a clear call on the river:

Board: Ad 8s 5d 8c Qs
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.833% 33.33% 12.50% 8 3.00 { ATs+, 98s, AJo+ }
Hand 1: 54.167% 41.67% 12.50% 10 3.00 { AhKc }

But, what you didn't indicate is what your range for him is on the river... As that range narrows, so does your equity.

You didn't give any stats on the villian, so I'm going to take my stereotypical tag UTG raising range that I work with : 22-AA, AK,AQ,AJ,KQs.

Now the fun begins... how does your villian perceive you? How does he perceive the flop texture based on your holdings? Would he c-bet this flop against YOU?

Probably. A high, with only a flush draw and one legitimate straight draw, pretty good texture.

So after the flop we still haven't narrowed his range. He could be holding any of the cards in his PFR range.

The turn is a good card for him if doesn't think you call with 2nd pair (which he probably doesn't if you've been playing solid). If he thinks you are a solid, he also knows he probably got raised if you had a set (your most likely holding). So now he pretty much has to put you on an ace.

Unless he's seen you check-call with flush draws (which I hope you aren't doing) he has no reason to think you are on a draw.

That being said, in order to fire a 2nd barrel, he needs to be pretty happy with his ace. He may not put you on AK since you didn't re-raise and it would be expected from a solid player.

So in order to fire the 2nd barrel he probably need one of the following: AK, AQ, AA, 88, 78s, 98s, and maybe KdQd (though I don't seem him building a big pot with a flush draw on a paired board OOP). I think AJ might check for pot control, because he's only beating AT or A9, neither of which a likely holdings for you provided that you've been playing solid.

I think if he has total air, he checks the turn unless you've been floating him a lot with small PP's. I'll assume you haven't been floating and proceed.

Let stove the turn range:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 78.947% 63.16% 15.79% 12 3.00 { AA, 88, AQs+, KdQd, 98s, 87s, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 21.053% 05.26% 15.79% 1 3.00 { AhKc }

Not looking so good.

Firing on the river is even tougher from his perspective. If he had something really weak like AJ, you aren't calling much if he pegs you solid. If he pegs you as an Ax junkie, different story, but I'll assume again he sees you as solid.

If he bets this river he's either expecting a fold from a flush draw that didn't make it (but we said he didn't put you on one, because you don't chase flushes). So that leaves you with an occasional 98x, a PP that made a boat, or a good AK or AQ or AJ.

If he has AJ he's splitting with AJ, and losing to your other possible Aces. If he has AQ he's winning against your AJ and AK. If he has AK, he's chopping with AK, losing to AQ, and winning over AJ. It's a wash, so he can technically bet all 3 if he thinks AJ is in your range. I think he checks AJ though, and only bets out AK/AQ here, in which case you are chopping or losing.

All the other hands in his range have you beat except for a busted flush draw. So let's stove his final river range. I've also included his busted draw as part of his range, although we'd really like to weight it, because he won't bet his busted draw every time he has it.

Board: Ad 8s 5d 8c Qs
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 78.947% 63.16% 15.79% 12 3.00 { AA, 88, AQs+, KdQd, 98s, 87s, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 21.053% 05.26% 15.79% 1 3.00 { AhKc }

Not good.

I think if he can 3-barrel on this board, you are losing a lot. It's not as bad as it looks though, since your break-even percentage (BEP) is 0.31, but it is still a losing proposition. As least you can take some notes if you call.

I go back to the initial paragraph. It depends. What can your opponent realistically 3-barrel here against you based on his image of you? Find that range, stove it versus your BEP.

I think most tags would have trouble 3-barreling a lot of one pair hands against another solid player.

Now if you flip this on its head and you've been running hot, but not showing down and appear some laggro monkey, then his range widens as he believe he's betting for value. If he's seen you chasing flush draws or calling down lightly with PP's, then suddenly we can open his range up quite a bit... even just by adding in a "value bet" with AJ, we suddenly get...

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 55.556% 44.44% 11.11% 12 3.00 { AA, 88, AJs+, KdQd, 98s, 87s, AJo+ }
Hand 1: 44.444% 33.33% 11.11% 9 3.00 { AhKc }

Now the river is an easy call.

I hope the hand range vs equity vs image and the "what can he triple barrel against *me*" thoughts make sense. What is his betting range vs his perceived range of your hand strength.

Please note, if you've been 3-betting him a lot (light or otherwise) you did want to 3-bet him here because he's less likely to put you on a "good" 3-bet hand.

And finally, because he does raise with any pocket pair (probably), re-raising cuts down (or eliminates) his implied odds of chasing a set, and therefore you set him up for a mistake. It also let's you take control of the hand (in position). You no longer have to hit to win. You can fire at almost *any* flop, and you keep pressure on him.

For all the reasons just listed, I still prefer to re-raise with this solid hand then just call, but either play is fine as long as you have a solid read on his ranges and betting patterns per street.

My NL25 cents.

Disclaimers: As usual I've made a lot of assumptions about ranges based on limited notes from OP, but the thinking applied should help solve this type of scenario (until you are leveled, at which point it becomes even more fun). No warranties implied or otherwise. Batteries not included.

Re: NL25 How toi keep Tag in
 

[ QUOTE ]
Against a 2p2 villain calling AK is ok occusionally for some meta game purposes and to confuzzle him.

You do, however, need to raise somewhere. Flop looks good cause he will play back at you or at least call with most aces (no way he places a 2p2er on AK here normnally).

Like thac said too you are representing a lot of hands when you raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would we not be turning our hand into a bluff at this point? A 2+2 is definitely switching to check/call check/fold mode after being raised on the flop/turn. As soon as he's raised, he's going to fear AK, sets, two pairs, and possibly combo draws. He has to play OOP, so the only way he stays in is with a very strong ace or a hand that is already crushing us.

If he is still in at the river after we've raised, we've lost (again, assuming solid 2+2er).

Look at it from the perspective of the villian...

You looked down and found AJ. You raise, one caller from a solid tag. You lead out and get called. On the turn, you lead out, but get raised... At best you call, then check/fold river, or fold right there on the turn. Then our AK hero ends up losing value from an AJ that might overplay it on the river (though not likely).

It seems like if you are going to play AK in this manner, check/call to river and show the villian he can't triple you (of course, if he triples you I still believe he is beating you more often than not).

By raising I think we *over-represent* our hand and only get called by AK, AQs and everything else in his range that is already winning.

By under-representing our hand (check-call), his betting range widens (at least on flop and turn).

Thoughts?

Re: NL25 How toi keep Tag in
 

i like your thinking. i guess i should have included his stats which were like 26/24/4 over a decent sample. Not sure how he viewed my threebeting but I would think he would think someone like me would threebet AK,AQ PF without much thought. I had been playing something like 17/15/1.5 but if he had me over 1000 hands I would be more like 20/18/3-4. He definitely has to put me on some kind of ace.

FWIW he showed up with Jd8d. Wasn't quite expecting that. Was thinking I would see AQ-AT or 9d8d or even 8d7d.

Re: NL25 How toi keep Tag in
 

If you want to tarp a TAG, you should really just raise this flop. This river + his bet sizing is pretty worrying, but I don't see how you can fold after you've underrepped your hand so much.

Re: NL25 How toi keep Tag in
 

[ QUOTE ]
i guess i should have included his stats which were like 26/24/4 over a decent sample.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow this is like a snapcall then.

Re: NL25 How toi keep Tag in
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok so how much should I raise flop for? My default is around 60% of pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd raise flop to 7 or 7.5 and go from there. I'm stacking off if he shoves.