NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

No reads, first hand at the table. Is this standard?

MP: $48.95
CO: $33.20
BTN: $69.05
Hero (SB): $49.50
BB: $11.05
UTG: $97.80

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $2</font>, MP folds, CO calls $2, BTN folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $8.50</font>, BB folds, UTG calls $6.50, CO calls $6.50

Flop: ($26) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $19</font>, UTG calls $19, CO folds

Turn: ($64) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, UTG checks

River: ($64) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $70.30 and is All-In</font>, Hero folds

Results: $64 Pot ($3 Rake)
UTG mucked and WON $61 (+$33.50 NET)

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

Preflop and river are standard IMO.

I'd bet a little less on the flop. In a reraised pot you can make smaller continuation bets, I'd bet 15-16 here.

I think check/folding is too weak here. But once you get called I don't think there's much you can do, especially since the A hit the river that connects to so many hands that take this preflop line.

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

this can't be your 1st hand at table you is in the SB &lt;/pedant&gt;

don't 3bet JJ readless vs an EP opener who will have position on you after the flop.

Flop CB is way too big - you've now put in 2/3 of your stack .

River - you've priced yourself in for a crying call as the pot is paying ~4:1 and you only beat a bluff.

Push the turn and hope that AK feels priced in and calls or that Villain is bluffing somehow.

I think it's much better to flat call here and play a smaller pot OOP. If we had some goot reads on villains postflop play then a 3bet is better but I don't think so here.

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

Ok, you´re right. First orbit [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

"don't 3bet JJ readless vs an EP opener who will have position on you after the flop." I think you are wrong here. JJ is a strong hand. Just callin in the BB makes the hand så hard to play. My goal is to play the hand against one OP. Not to play a threeway pot OOP.

Looking at the hand i agree that my CB is a little big.

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

if we play a small 3way pot OOP our implied odds are much better than a big pot HU OOP.

We have to give credit to EP raiser for a goot hand that we are a coinflip against (unpaired OC's to our Jacks) or crushed by (QQ+) most of the time - yes he has a smaller pp here sometimes. Then the CO flats. Hmmm well it's a squeeze opportunity, but that turns our JJ into a bluff - and given that the villains know about as much about us as we do about them (nothing) I think it's a little less likely that they fold. I think that if we are wanting to squeeze here I'd bump it to ~$15. If UTG calls our Potsized raise it gives CO plenty juicy odds to call with whatever he's got as well - we are just setting ourselves up for a tough hand here unless we flop a set.

As it turned out instead of playing a small pot 3ways OOP with great implied odds we are now playing a huge pot 3ways OOP with terrible Reverse Implied odds and all our options suck.

I think that what it comes down to is we have no [censored] clue about what calling ranges UTG + CO have in 3bet pots and until we have some idea of what those ranges are we do better to keep the pots smaller.

The river choices we have here suck - calling is bad cos we are almost always beat, folding is bad cos the pot is BIG and our turn check might have induced a bluff from something like TT (or worse KK) - tho it's odds on Villain holds AK/AQ here.

Whenever we end up in a [censored] spot on teh river it usually means we have messed up earlier streets.

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just callin in the BB makes the hand så hard to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

as opposed to your line, which as we can see worked out great

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

I call preflop for set value. No one else doing this? I mean, against a UTG raiser on which I have no reads, I play ultratight...

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

You guys really flat JJ here from the SB? Wow, thats news to me. But if both Matrix and AMA are doing it here I am really curious . . . maybe I am missing something.

You must 3-bet QQ here, right? Do you flat JJ but raise QQ? Is is really so close that AQ makes up enough of villain's range/the added chance of 4 more possible overcards flopping to make JJ a call but QQ a raise? AMA, Matrix, any other prominent posters i would REALLY REALLY REALLY like to hear from you guys on this. It seems to me there is a good amount of dead money in the middle, we have a random unknown at UNL, and we have a damn strong hand. OTOH, getting called here (especially in multiple spots) kind of blows. But i've religiously raised this since i started playing this game. Leak?

Also, flop lead is kind of meh against two players. If I do lead its for less, something like 14. Thats the last dime I put in unless I spike a J or villain bets some stupidly small amount.

I also would check this fairly often here (weak?) planning on calling 1 bet somewhere but not two. Weak?

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

[ QUOTE ]
You guys really flat JJ here from the SB? Wow, thats news to me. But if both Matrix and AMA are doing it here I am really curious . . . maybe I am missing something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally depends, but you know nothing about anyone so I err on the side of caution

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

IF I think that CO and or UTG calls me here oftentimes with hands worse than JJ then I 3bet.

If I think CO and UTG are tight enough to fold to a 3bet here then I 3bet.

I I know *nothing* about either player i) I tend not to sit at the table in the first place when I can mine 30 hands simply and have some idea of their playing styles before I sit. ii) err on the side of caution until I have a few postflop reads.

Yes JJ is a strong hand - but ALWAYS doing x in any given situation is a leak.

See AMA's "JJ from the SB" monster thread from last week for a range of opinions on that from a few respected SSNLers.

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

QUICK NOTE: Matrix, how are you pregame mining? This is stars. Are you using some rogue program that is against their TOC or am I missing something?

Wow, that was quick. Thanks for the responses guys. I'll have to check out AMA's line.

FWIW, I don't think having a default "always" line against random unknowns that don't know you is a bad thing. To them it is effectively random, and we have no knowledge of their play, so we have no reason to differentiate from what we think is the "best" play in a vacuum against said unknown/unknowns. When we start to have any info on villain/they have info on us that is when we need to start not *always* doing something. AMIRITE?

In my experience, players at this level are generally worse than better, and are almost always calling 3-bets with PP's if they raise them, playing the set-mining game even if they shouldn't be according to the 5-10 rule. Which inclines me to be 3-betting against random unknowns figuring that at the very least 66-TT are calling. Thoughts?

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just callin in the BB makes the hand så hard to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

as opposed to your line, which as we can see worked out
great

I think it worked out pretty well actually. I would have lost the pot anyhow. The only reason i lost to much was that BTN called to and I cb to big. Dont see why I should just call preflop. That is a little bit to nitty
[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You guys really flat JJ here from the SB? Wow, thats news to me. But if both Matrix and AMA are doing it here I am really curious . . . maybe I am missing something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally depends, but you know nothing about anyone so I err on the side of caution

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, why 3-bet someone when you don't know how tight they call 3-bets? We only have JJ, we don't have KK. As played, I guess postflop is fine.

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

re mining: I play at Party not Stars precisely because I can get a little edge on players a little easier. Even if the rake is higher and there is no RB I think I do better there than I would at Stars. YMMV.

I also flat call QQ here, but then I'm tricky like that sometimes.

I think this is more a "we don't know anything about anyone here so lets keep it tight until we do" situation rather than "zomg I got JJ lets 3bet"

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

Preflop is standard and anything else is bad, really. Flat calling QQ is ridiculous.

flop bet is too big as noted, here the pot is already so big that you can get away with half pot. Or just check and see what happens. Sucks he had AQ.

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

Jam, i love that you post here (coach me?). could you provide a little bit of reasoning for rr JJ here so we can put this to bed?

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

Well basically the reasoning is "zomg I got JJ lets 3bet". Jacks are a really good hand, and we don't mind too much if we get called or not. Sure it's tough if the flop is 9 high and someone has AA but it's just as tough if we flat call pre.

Or put it this way - there's no winning player at mid stakes that I've ever encountered who would call here pre without meta.

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

re-raise is so standard its boring preflop. Im 50/50 on flop with leading and checking its villan dependent. If all checks around fire a turn barrell. people float soo much rubbish like any pp 53o loads of rubbish. If it checks around and you lead turn a mid pp will call then most likely check river back

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

i'm much more apt to call without the caller. I pretty much always 3bet here and lead flop for 17. CF after that

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well basically the reasoning is "zomg I got JJ lets 3bet". Jacks are a really good hand, and we don't mind too much if we get called or not. Sure it's tough if the flop is 9 high and someone has AA but it's just as tough if we flat call pre.

Or put it this way - there's no winning player at mid stakes that I've ever encountered who would call here pre without meta.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jam do you find mid-stakes players also squeeze with much worse stuff than JJ, such as A4s or whatever. This way it forces people to cold call much weaker hands, like KQ/KJ or low pairs or something. Seems like it would be a profitable spot to squeeze with ATC assuming villians play reasonable.

At the micro's tho it seems that people do not fold....

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well basically the reasoning is "zomg I got JJ lets 3bet". Jacks are a really good hand, and we don't mind too much if we get called or not. Sure it's tough if the flop is 9 high and someone has AA but it's just as tough if we flat call pre.

Or put it this way - there's no winning player at mid stakes that I've ever encountered who would call here pre without meta.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jam, people don't 3-bet or call 3-bets as lightly at nl50, does this affect anything?

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

Hmm one post telling me micro players call more here and one telling me they call less. lol

Doesn't really matter tho because if they call a lot the we're in really good shape against their range and if they rarely call we still have good equity and we pick up a nice sized pot a lot.

Re: NL50 - JJ in a RR pott
 

If you were on the BTN here would it make it any different? It seems like such a basic spot at 1/2 but at .25/.5 it seemed like people were opening tighter UTG.

Also, whoever posted that they call lighter at nl50 may be right, I haven't played it in a few months but it seemed like I could 3-bet a bunch of hands and take it down.