40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

My image is terrible, well-deserved. But I'm against a middle position raiser, who just joined the table, which I called heads up from the big blind with JJ. Flop is Js-Ks-8x. I check, he bets, I call. Turn is case J. You bet or check?

I hear you on the complaints on how I should have likely re-raised before the flop, led out on the flop, and/or most definitely should have check-raised after I didn't. But all that's behind us. Check or bet heads-up with Quads after the Turn against an unknown opponent? Thanks!

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

I dont think it really matters at this point. You pretty much gave up on getting value out of this hand when you just called pf and cc on the flop. I suppose you should try to c/r since he cant put you on a J.

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

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My image is terrible, well-deserved. But I'm against a middle position raiser, who just joined the table, which I called heads up from the big blind with JJ. Flop is Js-Ks-8x. I check, he bets, I call. Turn is case J. You bet or check?

I hear you on the complaints on how I should have likely re-raised before the flop, led out on the flop, and/or most definitely should have check-raised after I didn't. But all that's behind us. Check or bet heads-up with Quads after the Turn against an unknown opponent? Thanks!

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Barf.

3 bet pf, bet flop, bet turn. If raised on the flop, consider calling/sexy turn. But prolly just 3 bet and gas it again on the turn.

By failing to 3 bet pf, you made turn card such a difficult decision and one that is player dependant. If your opponent has AK or AA, any bet you make is going to look like trip jacks. So its not like you are getting a ton of bets anyway unless your opponent has exactly KK in which case it doesn't matter how you play it as long as you keep raising.

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

You should have likely re-raised before the flop, led out on the flop, and/or most definitely should have check-raised after you didn't.

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

You slowplayed a pair of jacks, then slowplayed a set of jacks, so hell make it a trifecta and slowplay quads.

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

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But all that's behind us. Check or bet heads-up with Quads after the Turn against an unknown opponent? Thanks!

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I'd say bet, but it really doesn't matter what you do. It should such an exceedingly rare situation - that you make quads heads-up on the turn without ever having bet or raised - that you could probably muck every time that it happens and it wouldn't affect your win rate.

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

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I'd say bet, but it really doesn't matter what you do. It should such an exceedingly rare situation - that you make quads heads-up on the turn without ever having bet or raised - that you could probably muck every time that it happens and it wouldn't affect your win rate.

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i could muck and also give away $10 million every time i'm in this situation and it still wouldn't affect my winrate

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

"it really doesn't matter what you do"

wow see that's just really wrong. weird stuff happens all the time lhe, making mortal nuts hands is not rare at all and is worthy of discussion. how you play each hand really does matter. the apathy of "it doesnt matter", or its cousin, the way overused "it's close" are mediocre, non-commital, and non-analytical. yuck.

it does matter. you should check because you have the guy crushed and dont want to scare him off some hand that might pair on the river if he checks plus he might happily bet or bluff if checked to. against most players you will make significantly more here by checking.

that said, your play pf and on the flop are non-standard and you need to recognize that a lot of really good 40-80 players on here would routinely 3 bet your hand pf and/or c/r the flop if they had just called p/f, and theyd have several excellent reasons for doing so.

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
"it really doesn't matter what you do"

wow see that's just really wrong. weird stuff happens all the time lhe, making mortal nuts hands is not rare at all and is worthy of discussion. how you play each hand really does matter. the apathy of "it doesnt matter", or its cousin, the way overused "it's close" are mediocre, non-commital, and non-analytical. yuck.

it does matter. you should check because you have the guy crushed and dont want to scare him off some hand that might pair on the river if he checks plus he might happily bet or bluff if checked to. against most players you will make significantly more here by checking.

that said, your play pf and on the flop are non-standard and you need to recognize that a lot of really good 40-80 players on here would routinely 3 bet your hand pf and/or c/r the flop if they had just called p/f, and theyd have several excellent reasons for doing so.

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Damn, that was really well-spoken. Diplomatic, insightful, articulate and, best of all, flame-free. I think I have a new favorite poster.

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"it really doesn't matter what you do"

wow see that's just really wrong. weird stuff happens all the time lhe, making mortal nuts hands is not rare at all and is worthy of discussion. how you play each hand really does matter. the apathy of "it doesnt matter", or its cousin, the way overused "it's close" are mediocre, non-commital, and non-analytical. yuck.

it does matter. you should check because you have the guy crushed and dont want to scare him off some hand that might pair on the river if he checks plus he might happily bet or bluff if checked to. against most players you will make significantly more here by checking.

that said, your play pf and on the flop are non-standard and you need to recognize that a lot of really good 40-80 players on here would routinely 3 bet your hand pf and/or c/r the flop if they had just called p/f, and theyd have several excellent reasons for doing so.

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Damn, that was really well-spoken. Diplomatic, insightful, articulate and, best of all, flame-free. I think I have a new favorite poster.

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He was mine first!

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"it really doesn't matter what you do"

wow see that's just really wrong. weird stuff happens all the time lhe, making mortal nuts hands is not rare at all and is worthy of discussion. how you play each hand really does matter. the apathy of "it doesnt matter", or its cousin, the way overused "it's close" are mediocre, non-commital, and non-analytical. yuck.

it does matter. you should check because you have the guy crushed and dont want to scare him off some hand that might pair on the river if he checks plus he might happily bet or bluff if checked to. against most players you will make significantly more here by checking.

that said, your play pf and on the flop are non-standard and you need to recognize that a lot of really good 40-80 players on here would routinely 3 bet your hand pf and/or c/r the flop if they had just called p/f, and theyd have several excellent reasons for doing so.

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Damn, that was really well-spoken. Diplomatic, insightful, articulate and, best of all, flame-free. I think I have a new favorite poster.

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He was mine first!

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Well...just take your snowball and go home then.

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

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[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
"it really doesn't matter what you do"

wow see that's just really wrong. weird stuff happens all the time lhe, making mortal nuts hands is not rare at all and is worthy of discussion. how you play each hand really does matter. the apathy of "it doesnt matter", or its cousin, the way overused "it's close" are mediocre, non-commital, and non-analytical. yuck.

it does matter. you should check because you have the guy crushed and dont want to scare him off some hand that might pair on the river if he checks plus he might happily bet or bluff if checked to. against most players you will make significantly more here by checking.

that said, your play pf and on the flop are non-standard and you need to recognize that a lot of really good 40-80 players on here would routinely 3 bet your hand pf and/or c/r the flop if they had just called p/f, and theyd have several excellent reasons for doing so.

[/ QUOTE ]
Damn, that was really well-spoken. Diplomatic, insightful, articulate and, best of all, flame-free. I think I have a new favorite poster.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was mine first!

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Well...just take your snowball and go home then.

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I really doubt all the ass-kissing in the world will get mike to start posting as much as used to but it is still worth a try considering he has most likely posted the highest volume of solid advice in the history of 2p2 for the limit forums.

As far as the hand goes, the turn is an easy CR. Just need a little luck for him to have a K or better and get paid off. If the river pairs just make sure you appropriately call your hand as "quads full" when you table it.

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

"I really doubt all the ass-kissing in the world will get mike to start posting as much as used to but it is still worth a try considering he has most likely posted the highest volume of solid advice in the history of 2p2 for the limit forums."

Now THAT is a really good ass-backwards ass-kissing compliment. Snowball, we've been one-upped.

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

This is a really important post. In no limit, players can protect their hands, so you don't see "weird" stuff happen so much. In limit, guys hit "unexpected" sets or inside straights, runner-runner flushes, etc.

That said, quads are of course rare and, in that sense, it "doesn't matter." But, as Mike points out, it does matter. Because in a session, your profit is very defpendent on how you play 4-5 key hands. And each of them might be "weird."

It sure would be a shame if the guy folded to your bet here. I posted the Fox Corollary a long time ago: when flopping quads, bet the flop and check the turn. It was done with a little tongue-in-cheekiness, but Mike's reasons for checking here make sense to me.

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

For the benefit of the "new guys" (e.g., me), would you be so kind as to re-post the Fox Corollary? And, for those of us (e.g., me) that may not be able to fully appreciate your sharp wit and/or "tongue-in-cheekiness", could we get the "are you smarter than a fifth grader?" version.

P.S. You're still (secretly) my favorite poster, Andy.

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

With quads, bet the flop, check the turn.

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

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With quads, bet the flop, check the turn.

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LOL. I asked for it. But, what was the "tongue-in-cheek" part?

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

I agree with everyone else that you needed to get more value pre and post.

As played, though, I'd bet this turn. You'll get a call from a big spade that would have taken the free card. You'll get a call from a K or AA, and you'll get raised if he's somehow also flopped big.

FWIW, in my experience I have flopped straights/FHs headsup in these types of spots and used the c/c flop, donk turn line and gotten much more action that I could have ever imagined.

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

If the opponent is aggressive and does the standard "raise turn when you do the weak-ass donk", I like a turn bet. I think it also looks so retarded, that he may think you are on a straight/flush draw and pay you off anyway with an underpair or Ace-high.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what line you're going to take here. Check-raise will work if he's suspicious and call down lightly, but it's fairly likely to blow him off a hand. You could check-call turn and bet river.

But I think betting the turn and river has a really high chance of getting 2 BB out of the guy, whereas a c/r has a really high chance of getting 1 BB out of the guy.

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

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called heads up from the big blind with JJ. Flop is Js-Ks-8x. I check, he bets, I call. Turn is case J. You bet or check?



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is there a bonus for quads? and what are the rules for it? do you only win the bonus if the and is involved in a showdown? if yes to all the above, just check/call...

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

c/c

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

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As played, though, I'd bet this turn.

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but the important thing to take home is that "as played" shouldn't have to be said when discussing this hand. Its better to find the errors made in a hand like this (pre-flop and flop) than to only focus on the street where the hero is a lock.

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

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[but the important thing to take home is that "as played" shouldn't have to be said when discussing this hand. Its better to find the errors made in a hand like this (pre-flop and flop) than to only focus on the street where the hero is a lock.

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My on-again off-again coach Barry Tanenbaum calls this a "heart attack" hand...because the only way he'd be in this situation would be if the guy playing the hand had a heart attack after the turn and asked Barry to take over as the paramedics pulled him away.

In that sense, TT is right. But, with the "heart attack" caveat, I would check-raise the river.

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

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"I really doubt all the ass-kissing in the world will get mike to start posting as much as used to but it is still worth a try considering he has most likely posted the highest volume of solid advice in the history of 2p2 for the limit forums."

Now THAT is a really good ass-backwards ass-kissing compliment. Snowball, we've been one-upped.

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Glad you appreciate the finer aspects of the ass kiss. However, I derive very little benefit from mike posting here since if I need him all I do is call and we have already spent a bazillion hours discussing the game mostly just to come to the conclusion that LHE is a farce.

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

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LHE is a farce.


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Can you tell us a little more about this?

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

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LHE is a farce.


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Can you tell us a little more about this?

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It is basically the idea that the long run is very long and the luck factor looms so large that there are tons of mediocre players running well and playing bigger and bigger all the while thinking they are gods gift to poker when their fundamental understanding of the game is flawed.

FWIW, I don't really buy in to it but you asked so there ya go.

Re: 40-80 Commerce Line - Way Ahead Heads Up
 

Thank you for the comments. I agree that I did not play any part of the hand well up to the point of the turn; I mentioned that in my posting.

But this was a hand I wanted to play well on the turn and river and I think the bet/check-raise option is very very close. And to those that say this will never happen again, it's the 2nd time it's happened to me this year.

But even more important, for those that say "snowball" I could simply change the title to "nuts on the turn, heads up, now what?". This happens a lot, and in fact "should" mathematically happen more often to those on this Board due to how we play prior streets.

In this particular case, there's a few more scenario issues. First, and most important, I played utter passively before the turn bet. Second, the player is unknown to me (and vice versa). It is part 2 as to why I did what I did, which I will say below.

Most important reason this is important is that this hand has the opportunity to represent the entire session's profit. Not more than a few hands earlier in this same session a flop of AKx went 4 bets on the flop AND turn among two different players, and then bet, call on river (turn and river both looking like, and in fact being, blanks). What did they have? AK and AA. AA opened and jammed, and got paid for it. If AA had slowplayed, like I did, he would have lost all those bets.

To the conclusion:

I bet, and he was shocked. He thought about it, looked at his cards, moaned a bit, and called. The river was K (for those not paying attention, that means KJxJK, and I have pocket Jacks).

I decided that he would need to be pretty bad not to have check raised my turn with his own KK, so the river didn't scare me, and I bet. He folded almost immediately, flashing 99.

My side of the table congratulated me on my obvious bluff. I mucked quietly.

I think it's clear that having TAKEN THE LINE I ALREADY HAD TAKEN, I should have checked. Yes, I miss the chance for the one bet, but I put him on the plane to give me multiple bets, and that's enough positive EV to make it worth it.

Had I knew the player better (ie, at all), I believe I would have made a more player-specific decision. But with no information, next time I'm checking. And raising the flop, too.

Good luck this week.