Another IWTSYH; dealer resurrects mucked hand
 

1-2NL at a Florida dogtrack. I've been at this table about 4 hours and I'm the deep stack and (apparent) villan having beaten up on the weak-tights and passive players all evening. At one point when I doubled up a short stack in a set over set hand the winner was literally applauded. I'm a quiet player so I guess the frustration is all sour grapes and not my mannerisms. I'm pretty sure I'm not a dick. A couple hours later and I'm last to act in a 3-way hand. I raise to $12 PF, 2 callers up front. Turn brings me the nut-straight; BB checks, UTG goes all-in (about $250), I call and the BB ($150-ish) calls. River pairs the board and UTG immediately shows the rivered FH.

I say "nice hand" and move my cards to the muck as UTG asks to see my hand. I continue to move my cards forward and insert them firmly in the muck. "Sorry, but my cards have been mucked" I say. BB protests, as do two other players not in the hand. I say, as cheerfully as possible, "guys, the only reason you should have to see my cards is if you think I'm cheating" and consider the hand over. The dealer sez they have the right to see my hand and (somehow) picks my AQclubz out of the muck and shows.

I remain composed but inside I'm seething. After quickly re-iterating to the table that IWTSYH is kindergarden, I ask the dealer how the heck he thought it was OK to pull my cards from the grave like Lazarus. He sez they have an absolute right to see and I was wrong to move my cards to the muck as UTG was requesting to see my hand. *Maybe* I was a bad boy for mucking the cards myself, but once mucked aren't they deader than dead? At this point I racked up & split since it was getting late and I was now in a rare and complete state of tilt, so I didn't get the floor involved. Is it ever OK for my hand to be shown under these circumstances?

Re: Another IWTSYH; dealer resurrects mucked hand
 

If they ask and you have your hand, why didn't you just show them? They do have the right, its the rule, doesn't sound like it was being abused, just show your hand.

Re: Another IWTSYH; dealer resurrects mucked hand
 

The procedure for showing hands is for the dealer to touch them to the muck anyway. This ensures the hand is dead and then you table it. If you insert the hand into the muck which is not your job and they are still retrievable I don't see the issue here. The players at the table have the right to see your cards weather its a quasi-angle shot or not. The cards being dead doesnt mean you cannot table them. Dealers are instructed to take folded hands and shove them into the muck so they are not retrievable, you failed at this obv so you paid for it. This is 100% standard.

Re: Another IWTSYH; dealer resurrects mucked hand
 

hello Magicmuck

Re: Another IWTSYH; dealer resurrects mucked hand
 

I feel for you. I would show, but I really would hope players would learn the purpose of rules rather than the surface.

Re: Another IWTSYH; dealer resurrects mucked hand
 

Isn't the correct procedure for not showing your hand when IWTSTH is invoked, is eating them?

Re: Another IWTSYH; dealer resurrects mucked hand
 

I usually just take out a zippo and light them on fire.

Re: Another IWTSYH; dealer resurrects mucked hand
 

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Isn't the correct procedure for not showing your hand when IWTSTH is invoked, is eating them?

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This is obv. the correct answer.

Re: Another IWTSYH; dealer resurrects mucked hand
 

Spleen this is becoming the norm for florida poker (pbkc/hhr) I get fired up but I just counter it by doing the same to whoever asked.

Re: Another IWTSYH; dealer resurrects mucked hand
 

and actually if the supposed winner of the hand asks to see a hand then the hand is to remain live. If the winner asks and your hand (which may have been misread by you) beats their hand then you are the winner. If anyone else ask, which as said before they do have the right to do, then the dealer would take the cards. Tap them on the muck face down "killing" the hand and turn them up and then immediately muck them again.

As for a dealer retrieving a hand that is already in the muck, even though they know which ones they are, I have been told this is wrong. The only one that can retrieve a dead hand is the floor. This is the case where I work. Is it the same elsewhere?

Re: Another IWTSYH; dealer resurrects mucked hand
 

It depends on the house, in some a hand can become live again. The power muck here is just asking for trouble, your hands have no place near the stub.

If they're in the muck, I'm not going through it to try and guess which were whose cards - I'd call a floor if someone insisted, but knowing mine I doubt it would matter. If a player asks I'll safeguard the stub, since OPs not the first person to try and power muck his hand. I hate the IWTSTH rule personally but I hate people trying to force their cards into the stub even worse.

Re: Another IWTSYH; dealer resurrects mucked hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is it ever OK for my hand to be shown under these circumstances?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Every single time.

[ QUOTE ]
once mucked aren't they deader than dead?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dead means "disqualified; no longer eligible to win". Killing a hand doesn't make it Top Secret. The cards may be fished out to be shown, but not to compete in the showdown.

Re: Another IWTSYH; dealer resurrects mucked hand
 

[ QUOTE ]

It depends on the house, in some a hand can become live again. The power muck here is just asking for trouble, your hands have no place near the stub.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?

Re: Another IWTSYH; dealer resurrects mucked hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It depends on the house, in some a hand can become live again. The power muck here is just asking for trouble, your hands have no place near the stub.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because a decent floorman will boot you for touching the stub.

Re: Another IWTSYH; dealer resurrects mucked hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It depends on the house, in some a hand can become live again. The power muck here is just asking for trouble, your hands have no place near the stub.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because a decent floorman will boot you for touching the stub.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you muck your cards in such a fashion, it will make it easier for you to withhold a card and sleeve it.

Also, guys (and girls) who will sweet talk you while taking your money have a higher win rate.

Re: Another IWTSYH; dealer resurrects mucked hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I remain composed but inside I'm seething.

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Why? They're not accusing you of cheating. You're the one interpreting their request that way. You don't want them to see that you were in the lead when you bet? What harm could that do?

It makes no sense to me why people who claim to be smart about poker get upset by this. It's not just you, we see posts all the time about people getting upset over IWTSTH. Why does it bother you? That's -EV. Move past it, you'll be happier.

Re: Another IWTSYH; dealer resurrects mucked hand
 

I wasn't mad at the players who asked; they weren't very good and to be honest I don't think they'd gain a lot from seeing my hand. I knew they weren't accusing me of cheating and just wanted to see what I had. They probably don't even know that it's bad etiquette, but I'd prefer to explain that as we get on to the next hand. There was one good player at the table who'd I'd prefer not see my hand and my range 'cause I know he's a regular and I'll see him again. At any rate the 9 times outta 10 that UTG doesn't hit the 4 outer they'll see my hand anyway.

Now I *was* PO'd at the dealer, but it looks like I was in the wrong for sliding my hand in to the muck. Lesson learned.