An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

Short backstory-

I was ~26, my li'l bro was ~8. My brother was kicked in the head by a horse when he was 5, he has severe learning disability's and although looks normal, and appears to act normal for 5 min's at a time, cannot dress/cross the road/add 3+7 etc even now at the age of 12. His name is Max, Mine is Carl. My entire family is in no way religious, although my mother did send me to an equivelant of Sunday school, but it was just so I could play with other kids. I will never send my kids to anything like this.

My mother asked me to become Max's Godfather at his Christening. I said no.

My reason was very simply. i) I didn't want to be a hypocrite and say a load of stuff I didn't believe, and ii) I also thought it would be disrespectful, to people that genuinely believed, to do so.

My mother wanted to feel secure that after her passing I would step up to the plate and take care of my bro. This is something I would do anyway, and I believe she knew that, but she wanted extra assurance. I didn't know this at the time, but I suppose I had an incling.

Was my decision moral?

At the time I felt quite good about my decision, and my reason for making it, but as time passes I wonder more and more if I was incorrect.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

I don't think it is a simple as 'right or wrong'. There are reasons for taking both paths of action.

Being a godfather is also a bit different from church to church. In my country it isn't a problem to have a 'non-religious' godfather since the (major) churches generally view a godfather as someone who will/can partake in raising a child if needed, and often it is only a 'honorary' title anyway - not necessarily with religious undertones - as weird as it may sound given the title.

I was the godfather of my niece and didn't need to express an religious sympathies in doing so. It is more a ritual acknowledging my position in her life and a 'grace' extended by my sister as a recognition of our family connection.

If I had been asked by the priest to 'say' religious words I'd have explained my situation and explained I would want to express myself differently and probably focused more on moral values than religious content.

I'd say your decision was very moral, but morally right decisions can also have negative consequence.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

Couldn't you just be a "godfather" without all the religious stuff?

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

A big part of the ceremony was saying religios stuff with the priest in front of the congregation.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

I would have taken the same action, because I would have lost some self-respect if I had taken part in the rituals. I think it depends on the context.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

Your family's obligation not to force psychotic tales of flying dead people onto you is greater than your obligation to appease those beliefs.

So you're fine, in my opinion. You can still fulfill a godfather role without participating in a bathing ritual.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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Your family's obligation not to force psychotic tales of flying dead people onto you is greater than your obligation to appease those beliefs.

So you're fine, in my opinion. You can still fulfill a godfather role without participating in a bathing ritual.

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i am an atheist, but i think there are some times you just suck it up, do the whole thing for your family, and get over it. sometimes you have to let go of your personal beliefs to do something nice for those that care for you; this is why i had a bar mitzvah, i had no interest in doing it and didn't believe in the religious significance, but i did it for my relatives to whom it mattered a great deal.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

I think you were wrong.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

I think you were right.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

I think it depends entirely on how much it upset your mother. It seems to me that the only harm you did was contained in that - leaving her feelings out of it, I think it was right to decline the invitation but offer the support and reassurance of looking after your brother if the need arose. If your mum was able to accept that eventually, then there was no long term harm plus you havent had to lie.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

Why are your parents having a christening and did you have one?

I think this is right on the borderline. I mean if somebody gave you a Christmas gift and you refused it i would say you were being a huge nit.

I would do it because baptisms are so cool.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

Perhaps you could accept in principle to your mother, begin the ceremony in front of the congration and substitute the prepared text for a Dawkins essay...

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

Long as you made it clear to her that you would take responsibility for him, which was very likely her main concern, you did nothing wrong in not proclaiming it in a way that you didn't agree with. Whatever.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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My mother wanted to feel secure that after her passing I would step up to the plate and take care of my bro. This is something I would do anyway, and I believe she knew that, but she wanted extra assurance.

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Maybe you want to discuss with your mother the possibility of becoming a co-guardian when your brother reaches 18.

My girlfriend was in a similar situation. She has a mentally disabled sister and she became a co-guardian for her sister. Her situation is a bit different because her sister is over 18 years old.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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Why are your parents having a christening and did you have one?

I think this is right on the borderline. I mean if somebody gave you a Christmas gift and you refused it i would say you were being a huge nit.

I would do it because baptisms are so cool.

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I think that ~95% of the people I grew up with (School friends) that were from non-religious families were Christened. I would guess that number has dropped to ~90% now, it's just what people do/did. The Christmas analogy is a pretty good one actually.

I will not be getting my children Christened, but I know many other athiest friends that have/will. I don't really get it. My sister is an athiest and recently got married, the whole ceremony was religious, people just seem to accept it. It was very important to me that my own wedding ceremony was not religious, and I did not hold it in a church.

So I hope that kind of explains why my parents were having a Christening. Or more why they were not, not having a Christening.

Yes I was Christened.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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Your family's obligation not to force psychotic tales of flying dead people onto you is greater than your obligation to appease those beliefs.

So you're fine, in my opinion. You can still fulfill a godfather role without participating in a bathing ritual.

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My family never forced anything on me. Least of all religious beliefs. My school was different, there was no choice of primary school in my area, we sung hymns 3 times a week, my mother went to the same school. She was certainly not a Christian though. People just seemed to accept religious ceremony's for certain things (as I have just stated above) without either feeling the need to be a member of said religion, or feeling intruded upon by it.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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My mother wanted to feel secure that after her passing I would step up to the plate and take care of my bro. This is something I would do anyway, and I believe she knew that, but she wanted extra assurance.

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Maybe you want to discuss with your mother the possibility of becoming a co-guardian when your brother reaches 18.

My girlfriend was in a similar situation. She has a mentally disabled sister and she became a co-guardian for her sister. Her situation is a bit different because her sister is over 18 years old.

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Thankyou for this. I'll definately be giving this some thought.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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Couldn't you just be a "godfather" without all the religious stuff?

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The whole ceremony is basically the new godparents swearing to help the parents raise the child in the ways of the bible. I don't know how unerversal it is, but it was a Church of England ceremony (I think) and the 'godfather' means exactly that, according to the words used in the ceremony.

The ceremony, of course, had completely different connotations for both my mother, and (I would guess) ~90% of people that have them. It is more like the fluffy meaning - welcome into this childs life in a slightly enhanced/recomfirmed role.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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I think it depends entirely on how much it upset your mother. It seems to me that the only harm you did was contained in that - leaving her feelings out of it, I think it was right to decline the invitation but offer the support and reassurance of looking after your brother if the need arose. If your mum was able to accept that eventually, then there was no long term harm plus you havent had to lie.

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I have since made a point of stating to my mother that when I see my future, it is one where I am planning contingencies for my brother living with me, maybe in an annex of the house I hope one day to build. And that I am planning financially for a future in which he becomes one of my dependants, so I think I reconciled that ok.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

I really don't think either action is wrong.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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I really don't think either action is wrong.

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Sure, I am not tortured by it or anything.

I just thought it was interesting as it's like a hyperthetical situation that might be posted on these boards, only it actually happened.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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Couldn't you just be a "godfather" without all the religious stuff?

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The whole ceremony is basically the new godparents swearing to help the parents raise the child in the ways of the bible. I don't know how unerversal it is, but it was a Church of England ceremony (I think) and the 'godfather' means exactly that, according to the words used in the ceremony.

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Then you have to say no. Sometimes you just have to disappoint your parents.

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The ceremony, of course, had completely different connotations for both my mother, and (I would guess) ~90% of people that have them. It is more like the fluffy meaning - welcome into this childs life in a slightly enhanced/recomfirmed role.

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Yes, but I think that you should take it seriously. Otherwise, what's the point?

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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I really don't think either action is wrong.

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You don't think it's wrong to lie?

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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I really don't think either action is wrong.

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You don't think it's wrong to lie?

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Nah, I don't think it is especially wrong to lie.

But apart from that I have been in similar situations and done the ceremony and still not lied. Priests can usually tailor stuff a little if you explain the situation to them.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

I agree with it. I've always found the religious aspect of public ceremonies unpleasant. For instance at my Grandma's funeral we sang songs with lyrics like "blessed are they and only they who in his [Christ's] truth confide". It wasn't insulting to my Grandma who was a Christian, but it certainly was to some of the mourners. I don't mind a religious aspect, it's just that kind of arrogance of assuming that everyone attending shares the same beliefs that bothers me.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

I commend you for thinking things through, and being able to clearly spell out for your mother what your problem with it was. I think you did the right thing (both refusing the ceremony, and being there for your brother.) Had you JUST said no without an explanation I'd be saying you owed somebody a reason.

I am hopeful that your mother was understanding of your position on it. Mothers usually have a fair idea what is in their children's minds.

I do find it interesting how many of y'all find christenings to be completely routine things. I didnt have one, nor have most of my friends who had children arranged to have them done. Obviously varies widely between denominations.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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I do find it interesting how many of y'all find christenings to be completely routine things. I didnt have one, nor have most of my friends who had children arranged to have them done.

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they are becoming more rare now that people are aware of the danger of breaking a champagne bottle on a baby's face.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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I do find it interesting how many of y'all find christenings to be completely routine things. I didnt have one, nor have most of my friends who had children arranged to have them done.

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they are becoming more rare now that people are aware of the danger of breaking a champagne bottle on a baby's face.

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lol

good one

PairTheBoard

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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I really don't think either action is wrong.

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You don't think it's wrong to lie?

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Nah, I don't think it is especially wrong to lie.

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Then you are in a bad moral place.

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But apart from that I have been in similar situations and done the ceremony and still not lied. Priests can usually tailor stuff a little if you explain the situation to them.

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"Hello, I'd like to be this child's religious supervisor, but I don't believe in all that religion [censored]."

Yeah, they love that.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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Then you are in a bad moral place.

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do these pants make my butt look big?

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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Then you are in a bad moral place.

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do these pants make my butt look big?

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Sophistry is almost as bad as lying.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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Then you are in a bad moral place.

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do these pants make my butt look big?

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Sophistry is almost as bad as lying.

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And let's not even get started on sarcasm...

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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Then you are in a bad moral place.

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do these pants make my butt look big?

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Sophistry is almost as bad as lying.

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And let's not even get started on sarcasm...

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You're going straight to hell for that.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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I really don't think either action is wrong.

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You don't think it's wrong to lie?

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Nah, I don't think it is especially wrong to lie.

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Then you are in a bad moral place.

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Well I'm sharing it with 99.99% of humankind so I don't really care - words are cheap when it comes to claiming moral superiority. If anything I'm the one being honest here.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

Posting without reading any of the thread, but it seems like a good spot for some form of compromise to me. Little less religion. Little more legal guardian and all that jazz.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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I really don't think either action is wrong.

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You don't think it's wrong to lie?

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Nah, I don't think it is especially wrong to lie.

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Then you are in a bad moral place.

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Well I'm sharing it with 99.99% of humankind

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You think nearly all humankind don't care about lying?

Of course, there are gradations of lie. Some are fairly harmless, like telling your wife her butt doesn't look fat in those jeans. Some are more harmful.

But it matters. So much of our relations with others is contractual that if we all took the attitude that lying didn't matter, our worlds would fall apart.

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so I don't really care - words are cheap when it comes to claiming moral superiority.

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I'm not claiming anything. I lie when I feel I have to, but I don't pretend to think it's morally unimportant.

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If anything I'm the one being honest here.

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Actually, I don't think so. I think you expect honesty from people around you. I think you count on it. We all do.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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But it matters. So much of our relations with others is contractual that if we all took the attitude that lying didn't matter, our worlds would fall apart.

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You can evaluate each lie on an individual basis without applying a general stricture against lying. For example, you can evaluate the morality of a lie based on how much harm you expect that lie to do - in this case, a lie that does no harm isn't immoral and these contractual relations are preserved.

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Actually, I don't think so. I think you expect honesty from people around you. I think you count on it. We all do.

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Ahoho. If this is really true, then have I got a bridge to sell you. I'm a naturally trusting person and I've been scammed out of so much money. Within a year of moving to New York I learned not to expect honesty - my time in Peru and Costa Rica further reinforced that.

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

Well, Madnak pretty much said my opinion on this, so I'll just state that I agree with the above. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

short answer = wrong

Re: An interesting thing I did for discussion. Was I right or wrong?
 

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short answer = wrong

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What is the long answer?