K5s What to do
 

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 6Max

Preflop: Hero is K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on BTN.
Everybody folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB bets, Hero...

Re: K5s What to do
 

I hope you bet if you're checked to...

Re: K5s What to do
 

Did BB call, fold, or raise on the flop?

Re: K5s What to do
 

Looks to me like a failed steal attempt - I'd let it go without more information.

Re: K5s What to do
 

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Looks to me like a failed steal attempt - I'd let it go without more information.

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That's a bit weak-tight. Do you always fold top pair no kicker for one bet?

Re: K5s What to do
 

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That's a bit weak-tight. Do you always fold top pair no kicker for one bet?

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Meh.. there's 3-flush on the flop. It's likely that the bettor has a flush, a better king or at least a flush draw so there are very bad reversed implied odds. There are better situations to come...

But also, no one should be playing hands like K5s, they only cause trouble.

Re: K5s What to do
 

He generally doesn't have a flush here. I expect him to have a single spade, either the A or Q 90% of the time. If the BB folded, then call, down and c/f if another spade hits. Maybe raise a non-spade turn.

Re: K5s What to do
 

I'm raising this for value 100% of the time. Yes better Kings in his range but also needs to protect his hand if it's something like A8, or even T8, etc. You need to protect your hand too against a bunch of draws. I raise and call cap, call down, fold a spade if he bets just because it doesn't seem like this would be a bluff very often.

edit: Obv he could have a flush now. That would suck but meh. I don't like to call down on the flop but seems like it maybe has some merit as well.

Re: K5s What to do
 

Long time no post.

I think our value in this hand in its completeness is thin. I call every street UI and bet if checked to on later rounds. I think we can fold if a 4th spade comes and villain continues to bet. Sometimes we'll be ahead, sometimes we'll be behind, but I think in the long run we're fine letting it go to a 4th spade.

Re: K5s What to do
 

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But also, no one should be playing hands like K5s, they only cause trouble.

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It's called stealing and it's a GREAT hand to steal with.

Re: K5s What to do
 

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But also, no one should be playing hands like K5s, they only cause trouble.

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It's called stealing and it's a marginal hand to steal with.

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FYP

It's great if the blinds are tight, but then again if that's the case, ATC is a great hand to steal with. Against experienced defenders, it's probably a losing hand long term.

Re: K5s What to do
 

Good point. No I don't - depends on the players and the board. But with this kind of board I'd let it go.

Re: K5s What to do
 

If you're going to steal with this hand (and I think a steal with this hand from the button is definitely a good play -- I'd even consider stealing with this from CO), then you simply cannot fold the flop to a donk when you flop top pair unless you have a strong read.

I think calling is by far the best play, reserving the right to wait until the turn before committing lots of extra money in this pot and especially if BB folds. When the pot is HU and you're in position, you have a very good control on the number of bets that go into the pot.

Re: K5s What to do
 

I prefer a raise here on the flop. I then b/f the turn and check behind if I make it to the river.

Re: K5s What to do
 

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I prefer a raise here on the flop. I then b/f the turn and check behind if I make it to the river.

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The problem with raising the flop is that we don't have much info on villain. If villain is prone to overplaying a draw or overvalues weak hands, you're bloating a pot with a mediocre hand and you may lead yourself down a path of folding the best hand. I'd rather cut the variance against an unknown than make a big mistake trying to capitalize on an unknown edge.

Re: K5s What to do
 

either calling or raising are fine with me. i would tend to raise maybe 70/30 against unknowns.

Re: K5s What to do
 

I really think the donk bet on the flop smells like weakness. I tend to put my opponents on a flush draw or middle pair type hands. Most opponents in a blind defense situation will opt for a c/r with their stronger hands.

Re: K5s What to do
 

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I really think the donk bet on the flop smells like weakness. I tend to put my opponents on a flush draw or middle pair type hands. Most opponents in a blind defense situation will opt for a c/r with their stronger hands.

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This hand is more than "smelling weakness" and attacking (which is really you putting a read on the situation based on your experience, which may or may not apply to this situation depending on whether you play Stars 6-max .50/1).

If you think he has a weak hand, why not wait until the turn to punish him? Do you not expect him to donk the turn as well?

What about getting 3-bet by the Ace of nut-flush-draw-dom? Are you folding on the turn UI if 3-bet, or will you call down top pair anyway if there's no flush card?

If you think he could be donking middle pair, why not value bet the river?

In heads up situations in position, you have a huge amount of control over the action. Against an unknown, I think it's better to get to showdown with a made mediocre hand on a scary board for the value of seeing his cards and getting a read so that you can support your blind steals with information in future hands.

Re: K5s What to do
 

If the villain three bets the flop and I know nothing about him I will then call down. I don't wait to donk the turn because I don't feel like folding if the villain gets overagressive with some kind of pair+FD hand and 3balls me. I feel like raising the flop makes the hand easier to fold if we are shown any aggression on later streets.

Re: K5s What to do
 

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That's a bit weak-tight. Do you always fold top pair no kicker for one bet?

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Meh.. there's 3-flush on the flop. It's likely that the bettor has a flush, a better king or at least a flush draw so there are very bad reversed implied odds. There are better situations to come...

But also, no one should be playing hands like K5s, they only cause trouble.

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Surely at 6 max you have to be trying to steal the blinds with hands like this? Mind you, going by my results in my comparatively limited 6 max attempts, that could be a leak on my part!
Without reads, calling down seems reasonable (folding if another spade appears) and always bet if checked to. Let him keep betting second pair if that is what he has. Raising here seems to me to be "raising for info syndrome" with the usual problem that you don't know what info you have got if villain 3 bets you.

Re: K5s What to do
 

This is a 100% standard steal attempt, and you flopped top pair. Folding is out of the question for now.

As I see it, there are three reasonable lines, assuming BB has folded and the pot is now heads-up:

1. Raise the flop, and bet a non-spade turn. This line has the advantage of getting in a raise against a very likely draw. It also might get paid off by something like middle pair that puts you on the flush draw. It has the disadvantage of immediately snapping of a bluff if villain is getting cute with the monotone board.

2. Call the flop and raise a non-spade turn. This line gets the absolute maximum from a flush draw. It might even fold out a small spade, which would be nice. The disadvantage is that villain might wuss out and not lead the turn.

3. Call the flop, call a non-spade turn. Passively calling down is sometimes the best line in HU pots. Monotone boards sometimes represent irresistable opportunities for villains to run three-barrel bluffs. It would be a shame to talk villain out of such a line. The obvious disadvantage is that calling down misses value from draws and weak pairs that would pay off a raise.

IMO, 2 > 3 > 1, but that's just me, and there's some merit in any of these approaches, and HU play allows you to mix up your postflop lines. The main thing is that you absolutely cannot fold this flop, and you should be tentatively planning on getting to showdown unless another spade hits or unless villain 3-bets you on the turn (if you go that route).

Re: K5s What to do
 

It all depends on what BB did. I'd call one bet, but not two.

Re: K5s What to do
 

I'm assuming BB folded, I would raise here. Generally I like to raise here with TP because villain will often think I'm raising here with a spade (which I sometimes am as well), & calling me down light. Lately I've found these sorts of donks generally to be a spade draw or MP/BP (sometimes a pp). Occasionally it will be TP with a weak kicker (hey look same as us!).

Although this is not exact evidence I tend to find the lower the limit the higher the chance the donk is a TP but this is completely speculative & not factual.