$55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

Standard? Does anyone not bet out the turn?



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (2 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button (t1510)
Hero (t1490)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Button calls t10, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t60</font>, Button calls t40.

Flop: (t120) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t80</font>, Button calls t80.

Turn: (t280) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t120</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t240</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t520

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

Raise 4 x bb preflop oop. As played, I think its ok, but you could maybe call his minraise and see what he does on the river.

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

no do not raise 4xbb preflop. that is really really really bad advice. obviously make a standard raise so it is not blatent you have a monster (and raising to 60 is most common pfr size).

you played the hand fine; calling the minraise would be spew; he either has an ace and is beating you, or is bluffing and will probably fire again on the river.


betting out on the turn is marginal, so it depends on reads which i dont have, but i would usually check i guess, but i dont have a big problem with betting.

but seriously ignore greg's post.

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

[ QUOTE ]
no do not raise 4xbb preflop. that is really really really bad advice. obviously make a standard raise so it is not blatent you have a monster (and raising to 60 is most common pfr size).

you played the hand fine; calling the minraise would be spew; he either has an ace and is beating you, or is bluffing and will probably fire again on the river.


betting out on the turn is marginal, so it depends on reads which i dont have, but i would usually check i guess, but i dont have a big problem with betting.

but seriously ignore greg's post.

[/ QUOTE ]

everyone else that has a clue what is going on will agree with me that raising 1 more bb oop is completely standard preflop.

i agree calling minraise is marginal.

am i putting you on life-tilt tmc??? lol

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

well to be fair you are doing my head in by giving really bad advice is a really confident manner. and no one will agree with you about bet sizing in a nltrn is my prediction, but i will have to let others speak for themselves (what i can say though is that when i have played megah and ovalis, neither of them raised to 4xbb . . . )

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

Saying 3 x bb in position and 4 x bb oop doesn't really work because you can make arguments to raise smaller amounts with certain stack sizes.

Adding 1 bb to your preflop raise oop is pretty standard though.

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

[ QUOTE ]
obviously make a standard raise so it is not blatent you have a monster

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, you should make a standard raise.

But most of the time, 4xBB should *be* your standard raise OOP. That is what greg is saying there. Simply ignoring the comment altogether would be a mistake.

I don't think calling the minraise is *complete* spew, either. If he has an ace, it's not going to be a strong one unless it's A4 (most people don't limp A8+ on the button), so you're not likely to face a big bet on the river most of the time, and it could be a jack wanting to find out if you really have an ace, or even JcXc.

And you're getting almost 4 1/2 to 1 on the minraise call, so edit - you only have to be ahead - /edit like 18% of the time or something for the call to be reasonable.

It's very tough to make guesses about what villain could be doing this with given a complete absence of reads, or previous game flow, though.

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

[censored] greg i owe you an apology, i completely missed that OP was oop. sorry. yeah raise bigger.

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

[ QUOTE ]
no one will agree with you about bet sizing in a nltrn is my prediction

[/ QUOTE ]
I definitely agree (although whether I actually have a clue or not is certainly up for debate. Most days I would say no), but I know for a fact there are a number of other frequent posters who are solid winning players that would also agree that 4xBB is a better OOP raise than 3x.

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

yeah i know, as i said, i misread OP and missed that he was oop, so yeah, i feel stupid, and now agree with greg.

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Standard? Does anyone not bet out the turn?



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (2 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button (t1510)
Hero (t1490)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Button calls t10, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t60</font>, Button calls t40.

Flop: (t120) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t80</font>, Button calls t80.

Turn: (t280) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t120</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t240</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t520

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet more on the turn. As someone who played $50s and $55s for a long time, I would raise you almost every time because your bet screams weakness. By betting more, it costs him more to re-raise you. Think about it: would you bet 120 into a 280 pot with AK here too?

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Standard? Does anyone not bet out the turn?



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (2 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button (t1510)
Hero (t1490)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Button calls t10, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t60</font>, Button calls t40.

Flop: (t120) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t80</font>, Button calls t80.

Turn: (t280) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t120</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t240</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t520

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet more on the turn. As someone who played $50s and $55s for a long time, I would raise you almost every time because your bet screams weakness. By betting more, it costs him more to re-raise you. Think about it: would you bet 120 into a 280 pot with AK here too?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I missed this.

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

Why is 3xBB raise from BB worse than 4xBB raise? I adjust my oop raise size/range according to my opponents calling frequency. 3xBB is standard for me but if opponent always calls then I'll quickly raise it to 3.5 or 4. Sometimes it may be as high as 5 or 6 if opponent is really station (and of course I'll raise only premium hands then).

I'd bet more on flop and more on turn. Something like 90-105 on the flop and 200 on turn. If then raised, fold without reads.

As played I think calling the minraise is correct and see what villain does on the river.

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

Because you are giving villain 2:1 to have position on you

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

I know some very good players that raises to 3x from BB (for example Stoxtrader). At least they used to. I wonder why they did that if giving 2:1 for position is that bad...

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

Raise to 4BB is a standard raise preflop OOP. I like the bet on the flop, but after he calls you, you need to shut down. Betting on the turn is good, because you don't put him on an ace. If it was reraised pot, you would need to shut down. If you figure he is a retard who will call you on the turn with a draw, and then bluff if he doesn't hit, I go c/f because you don't know whether he has an ace or a missed draw.

It is a situation we all learn to hate, but no one learns how to deal with it completely. In your case without reads, I think your line is the best.

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know some very good players that raises to 3x from BB (for example Stoxtrader). At least they used to. I wonder why they did that if giving 2:1 for position is that bad...

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not THAT bad. Giving villain 1.6:1 odds to call by raising 4 x bb just seems like the more +ev option oop.

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

I think the key is most people generally raise only with quality hands if villains are going to call a lot. Against better players that fold more hands to your limp raises, you can raise air or mix in some more hands, but generally you're going to want to only raise limps with strong hands.

Effective stack size to blinds should be a strong consideration, as well as how you feel you play against your opponent OOP in raised pots. But 3, 3.5, 4+ are all sizes I've used, depending on situation.

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

[ QUOTE ]
adjust my oop raise size/range according to my opponents calling frequency.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is *far* more correct than always raising 3x, or always raising 4x, or whatever.

4x is just a better "default" size when OOP, especially in the earlier levels, especially if you're only raising OOP with strong hands, which, again, should probably be the default play.

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Saying 3 x bb in position and 4 x bb oop doesn't really work because you can make arguments to raise smaller amounts with certain stack sizes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Standard? Does anyone not bet out the turn?



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (2 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button (t1510)
Hero (t1490)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Button calls t10, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t60</font>, Button calls t40.

Flop: (t120) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t80</font>, Button calls t80.

Turn: (t280) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t120</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t240</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t520

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually make a normal cbet on the flop, check the turn (call/fold depends on read), solid bet on river if they checked behind on turn.

If you make it that far you generally get called by the jack, if they have the ace you usually won't make it to the river.

Edit: In my experience players with the jack won't call 3 barrels but will be borderline for calling 2 (meaning if you bet the flop they are like 50% for calling another bet on the turn). By showing weakness on the turn you can usually push them over the edge for calling on the river. On the other hand, the ace probably isn't folding regardless. The turn check is pretty break-even for value from the jack, but it helps control the pot in case you run into the ace.

Re: $55 NLTRN: standard KK on A hi board?
 

Seems that we have no real read on villain.
I think I double barral this turn quite often aswell. There is a FD and he could have a gutshot with KQ aswell or some J. The turn does not complete any draw so firing twice is quit alright I think.

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Edit: In my experience players with the jack won't call 3 barrels but will be borderline for calling 2 (meaning if you bet the flop they are like 50% for calling another bet on the turn). By showing weakness on the turn you can usually push them over the edge for calling on the river. On the other hand, the ace probably isn't folding regardless. The turn check is pretty break-even for value from the jack, but it helps control the pot in case you run into the ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post, gives something to think about!