are there really 2?
 

never posted here before, but this will be fun. How does the community here feel about the party system in America? To me, it seems more like there is really only one party, half believe abortion should be legal and the other half believe gay's shouldn't get married.

I learned when i was very young that the left wing was about big government, while the right was more into self governance. Do we really have those choices? seems like both "party"'s are increasingly similar and both spend more and more money every year. As a clear example, as far as policy goes, what's the difference between Hillary and Bush?

Re: are there really 2?
 

As you said, Hillary favors larger government, Bush favors smaller government.

The most recent and obvious example of this is the recent health care debate. Bush vetoed a bill that he felt was a push towards socialized healthcare, a system the democrats, and Hillary, have been pushing for a while. Meanwhile, all the Republicans on the debate stage are against socialized medicine.

Re: are there really 2?
 

well, facts are facts
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/....asp?newsID=31

Re: are there really 2?
 

and more recent...
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/bush-big-govt.html

Re: are there really 2?
 

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As you said, Hillary favors larger government, Bush favors much larger government.

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FYP

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Bush vetoed a bill that he felt was a push towards socialized healthcare, a system the democrats, and Hillary, have been pushing for a while. Meanwhile, all the Republicans on the debate stage are against socialized medicine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, one example makes it true. Let's ignore the fact that the budget had increased more under him than any president in history... even ignoring military spending!

Re: are there really 2?
 

The government would get bigger under Hillary.


Is that an incorrect statement?

Re: are there really 2?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The government would get bigger under Hillary.


Is that an incorrect statement?

[/ QUOTE ]

"The government gets bigger" is a correct statement.

Re: are there really 2?
 

[ QUOTE ]
As you said, Hillary favors larger government, Bush favors smaller government.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, what Bush says, what he means and reality are three distinct domains. You need some examples? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: are there really 2?
 

but my question is won't the government also get bigger under....say....giuliani? seems the only REAL right wing option is Ron Paul, am i off here?

Re: are there really 2?
 

In my opinion, Hillary would do anything Giuliani would do, plus more.

2 examples: Giuliani wants to leave abortion up to the states, Giuliani wants to leave healthcare private.

"ergo", Giuliani is for smaller government than clinton.

Ummm, but yeah, I think Ron Paul is the best option for smaller government.

Re: are there really 2?
 

does it not seem that the right is both misrepresented and unrepresented in the last 8 years? This is what i mean by a 1 party system, its like half the lefties just said one day "now im a righty" and then killed all the real righties or colluded to silence them(killed figuratively) so the consequence is 1 party with 2 factions, thoughts?

Re: are there really 2?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The government would get bigger under Hillary.


Is that an incorrect statement?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bigger than it is now? Sure. Bigger than it would if Bush were president instead for the next 4 years? Maybe.

Re: are there really 2?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, Hillary would do anything Giuliani would do, plus more.

2 examples: Giuliani wants to leave abortion up to the states, Giuliani wants to leave healthcare private.

"ergo", Giuliani is for smaller government than clinton.


[/ QUOTE ]

Giuliani wants to leave health care private... but still have government pay for it! So yes, he does support a version of socialized medicine. In fact, while I think vouchers would be an improvement for schools, due to the fact that medical vouchers would keep and increase the corruption of insurance companies, it may actually be worse than Hillary's plan.

Giuliani's statements towards health care are the most politiciany double talky nonsense of any of the candidates.

Re: are there really 2?
 

[ QUOTE ]
never posted here before, but this will be fun. How does the community here feel about the party system in America? To me, it seems more like there is really only one party, half believe abortion should be legal and the other half believe gay's shouldn't get married.

I learned when i was very young that the left wing was about big government, while the right was more into self governance. Do we really have those choices? seems like both "party"'s are increasingly similar and both spend more and more money every year. As a clear example, as far as policy goes, what's the difference between Hillary and Bush?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish there was a 3rd party, but the fact of the matter is most Americans are so stuck in democrat republican mode that they can't get out of it. So what politiciansd do is they kind of evolve and stay true to taditional party lines but then welcome in new ideas.
One thing is for sure when you look at the republican George Bush is, it is much different than what the Reagen was.

Re: are there really 2?
 

Our ruling clerics, i mean the media, choose our candidates. If a candidate is not in favor of larger government, they are not taken seriously.

Re: are there really 2?
 

[ QUOTE ]
never posted here before, but this will be fun. How does the community here feel about the party system in America? To me, it seems more like there is really only one party, half believe abortion should be legal and the other half believe gay's shouldn't get married.

I learned when i was very young that the left wing was about big government, while the right was more into self governance. Do we really have those choices? seems like both "party"'s are increasingly similar and both spend more and more money every year. As a clear example, as far as policy goes, what's the difference between Hillary and Bush?

[/ QUOTE ]

"In the United States, the political system is a very marginal affair. There are two parties, so-called, but they're really factions of the same party, the Business Party. Both represent some range of business interests. In fact, they can change their positions 180 degrees, and nobody even notices. " - Noam Chomsky

"I mean, what's the elections? You know, two guys, same background, wealth, political influence, went to the same elite university, joined the same secret society where you're trained to be a ruler - they both can run because they're financed by the same corporate institutions. At the Democratic Convention, Barack Obama said, 'only in this country, only in America, could someone like me appear here.' Well, in some other countries, people much poorer than him would not only talk at the convention - they'd be elected president. Take Lula. The president of Brazil is a guy with a peasant background, a union organizer, never went to school, he's the president of the second-biggest country in the hemisphere. Only in America? I mean, there they actually have elections where you can choose somebody from your own ranks. With different policies. That's inconceivable in the United States." - Noam Chomsky

Re: are there really 2?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
never posted here before, but this will be fun. How does the community here feel about the party system in America? To me, it seems more like there is really only one party, half believe abortion should be legal and the other half believe gay's shouldn't get married.

I learned when i was very young that the left wing was about big government, while the right was more into self governance. Do we really have those choices? seems like both "party"'s are increasingly similar and both spend more and more money every year. As a clear example, as far as policy goes, what's the difference between Hillary and Bush?

[/ QUOTE ]

"In the United States, the political system is a very marginal affair. There are two parties, so-called, but they're really factions of the same party, the Business Party. Both represent some range of business interests. In fact, they can change their positions 180 degrees, and nobody even notices. " - Noam Chomsky

"I mean, what's the elections? You know, two guys, same background, wealth, political influence, went to the same elite university, joined the same secret society where you're trained to be a ruler - they both can run because they're financed by the same corporate institutions. At the Democratic Convention, Barack Obama said, 'only in this country, only in America, could someone like me appear here.' Well, in some other countries, people much poorer than him would not only talk at the convention - they'd be elected president. Take Lula. The president of Brazil is a guy with a peasant background, a union organizer, never went to school, he's the president of the second-biggest country in the hemisphere. Only in America? I mean, there they actually have elections where you can choose somebody from your own ranks. With different policies. That's inconceivable in the United States." - Noam Chomsky

[/ QUOTE ]

umm....ya QFT?

Re: are there really 2?
 

Yeah, there is essentially one party.

Re: are there really 2?
 

Democrats and Republicans are like Coke and Pepsi. They're different enough that they're distinguishable, but when you think about it they're really the same thing.

Re: are there really 2?
 

to me its just that Hillary will tell you that she's making the government bigger, while Giuliani,romney and thompson would just obfuscate and sort of hide or just not mention they're huge spending increases.

Re: are there really 2?
 

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Our ruling clerics, i mean corporations, choose our candidates and policy of the country. If a candidate is not in favor of corporations, they are not taken seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a reality since media, top elected officials and both political parties are directly bankrolled by corporations.
Wouldn't it be great if for a change a president would be a representative of average Americans and not a representative of haves and more haves or corporations?

Re: are there really 2?
 

It's an almost inevitable consequence of first-past-the-post systems that you end up with two parties that look pretty similar. If you had runoff voting with a proportional legislature and a condorcet vote for president then things would be very different.

Re: are there really 2?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The government would get bigger under Hillary.


Is that an incorrect statement?

[/ QUOTE ]

"The government gets bigger" is a correct statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. If someone wants to confirm this that would be awesome, but I'm pretty sure that the every president since FDR has set a new record for government size.

Re: are there really 2?
 

[ QUOTE ]
does it not seem that the right is both misrepresented and unrepresented in the last 8 years?

[/ QUOTE ]

head asplode. The largely socially liberal libertarian sect of the right (like what you see around these parts) is horribly underrepresented if that's what you mean. But the radical right wing that most of our elected Republicans comes out of is vastly overrepresented in the public discourse.

Re: are there really 2?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Our ruling clerics, i mean the media, choose our candidates. If a candidate cannot raise tons of money and that candidate challenges corporate interests, they are not taken seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Even Ron Paul challenges corporate interests, so don't get all bent out of shape.

Re: are there really 2?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
never posted here before, but this will be fun. How does the community here feel about the party system in America? To me, it seems more like there is really only one party, half believe abortion should be legal and the other half believe gay's shouldn't get married.

I learned when i was very young that the left wing was about big government, while the right was more into self governance. Do we really have those choices? seems like both "party"'s are increasingly similar and both spend more and more money every year. As a clear example, as far as policy goes, what's the difference between Hillary and Bush?

[/ QUOTE ]

"In the United States, the political system is a very marginal affair. There are two parties, so-called, but they're really factions of the same party, the Business Party. Both represent some range of business interests. In fact, they can change their positions 180 degrees, and nobody even notices. " - Noam Chomsky

"I mean, what's the elections? You know, two guys, same background, wealth, political influence, went to the same elite university, joined the same secret society where you're trained to be a ruler - they both can run because they're financed by the same corporate institutions. At the Democratic Convention, Barack Obama said, 'only in this country, only in America, could someone like me appear here.' Well, in some other countries, people much poorer than him would not only talk at the convention - they'd be elected president. Take Lula. The president of Brazil is a guy with a peasant background, a union organizer, never went to school, he's the president of the second-biggest country in the hemisphere. Only in America? I mean, there they actually have elections where you can choose somebody from your own ranks. With different policies. That's inconceivable in the United States." - Noam Chomsky

[/ QUOTE ]

Or Morales in Bolivia. Latin America (outside of Mexico, of course) is surprisingly dynamic in it's politics.

Re: are there really 2?
 

[ QUOTE ]
QFT. If someone wants to confirm this that would be awesome, but I'm pretty sure that the every president since FDR has set a new record for government size.

[/ QUOTE ]
Inflation adjusted spending decreased under Clinton and Nixon and held approximately flat under Carter.

http://www.heritage.org/research/fea...arts_S/S-3.gif