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Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
If tomorrow it was somehow proved to everybody in the world that there was no god of any sort, about 80% of the world would be personally distressed. 15% would be neutral. Only about 5% would become happier.
About ten percent of those who became inititally distressed would eventually personally DIRECTLY benefit from this new found knowledge to a point where it have more than made up for their distress. Still lots more would remain unhappy. Put another way, even unborn people, at least for a few generations would be more likely to be happier if they believed. (Unless they were born into a very advanced country like Sweden). On the other side of the coin is the indirect benefits to those who remain distressed. Fewer wars. More people working on cancer cures. Less repression. These extra benefits tip the balance for some more distressed people. However even throwing these things in, I think the overall happiness units of the world population would decrease without religion. Too many people would remain extremely unhappy without their god. (Of course if that is not an important measure in your eyes we have a different discussion.) I will admit that even using my criteria, it is close. But only because present day religions are often so bad. If all religious people were either Episcopalians or reformed Jews I don't think we would want to change them. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
You're pulling this out of nowhere. Do you have anything other than personal intuitition to back up these claims? What if you're wrong about the ten percent figure you quote, and the true figure is actually twenty percent? Would that tip the scales? Do you have any rational process according to which you've reached your conclusion? If, as you admit, "it is close," then how can you have a high level of confidence in your estimate?
I think your main problem is that you hugely underestimate the impact of war and disease, and you hugely overestimate the impact of existential distress. And of course I think you ridiculously underestimate the ease with which people can get over this problem. I'd lay 2:1 that within 20 years at least 60% of the prior theists would have regained their level of satisfaction. And the long term is just as important as the short term. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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I think your main problem is that you hugely underestimate the impact of war and disease, [/ QUOTE ] But you hugely overestimate the degree to which religiousness influences such things. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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Put another way, even unborn people, at least for a few generations would be more likely to be happier if they believed. [/ QUOTE ] wtf? At least invoke Baye's if you're going to make claims like that, or provide some kind of reasoning. [ QUOTE ] (Unless they were born into a very advanced country like Sweden). [/ QUOTE ] The only thing advanced about Sweden is that they don't teach their kids psychotic crap like the OT and Jesus stories. Besides, there are plenty more countries beside Sweden with high atheist numbers and high happiness ratings. I linked the info in the other thread. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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[ QUOTE ] I think your main problem is that you hugely underestimate the impact of war and disease, [/ QUOTE ] But you hugely overestimate the degree to which religiousness influences such things. [/ QUOTE ] It's curious that Mr Sklansky is so keen on the end of religion, but has no problem with money, which may not be the root of all evil but lies at the root of most conflict. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
This sounds like nothing but personal opinion to me, and an attempt to 'put it in numbers' to give it some legitimacy. There are reasons why having religious belief would lead to happiness that has nothing to do with needing a 'belief in god', for instance the need to fit in. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
Am I naive to believe that a number of people, if told tomorrow 'There is 100% NO GOD - here's the proof', would suddenly see things like rape, murder, theft, robbery etc. acceptable?
I am not saying I agree or disagree with OP, just trying to add something that seems to be always forgoten in these conversations. And I am not only talking about devout believers here. There is a MASSIVE difference between non-belief in god, (and in the ramifications therin implied with regard to everlasting punishment/reward etc,) and knowing for a fact there is no god. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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I will admit that even using my criteria, it is close. But only because present day religions are often so bad. If all religious people were either Episcopalians or reformed Jews I don't think we would want to change them. [/ QUOTE ] Yipes!!! The British Lion bows it's head to thunderous applause. Justification is here, the Queen Mother sits in the kitchen, breathing a sigh of relief. If not for Sklansky we were lost but now Rule Brittanica!!. Henry the Eighth rolls in his grave, a smile, the righteous justification of adultery. Big Ben, the Royal Navy, Houses of Parliment hold day of celebration as justification is succinct, clear and in wondrous procession. Pox on you!! Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Conservative Jew, Christians not of the Island, and of course all others!The work of men through their lives in concert is nothing for the Grecian Harp, Roman Law, a Beethoven Sonata, the Wonder of a Michaelangelo were all for nought, lost in the dismal burp of an improbable chance. The blather of an Olympian Hubris, reason of the unreasonable strikes again. fades away.... |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
The queen mother has been dead for a while now...
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Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
Seriously, cannot you see that this is the very time you speak of? Loss of the Godhead is prevalent throughout the major religions, the connection is lost.The consequence is an abstract materialism which is permeating each and every religion. Hell, the first to be infected by materialism is the churches and especially the Christian Church.
The Godhead is approached by perception and in this the fight goes on, as Man gains new perceptive abilities, in time and through recurrent lives. We've crashed to the earth and in fact have crashed to the sub-earthly in our perceptions. This is the very world you are speaking to. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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he queen mother has been dead for a while now... [/ QUOTE ] Who was in Virginia in May of this year? Yipes!! Another conspiracy! |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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Yipes!!! The British Lion bows it's head to thunderous applause. Justification is here, the Queen Mother sits in the kitchen, breathing a sigh of relief. If not for Sklansky we were lost but now Rule Brittanica!!. Henry the Eighth rolls in his grave, a smile, the righteous justification of adultery. Big Ben, the Royal Navy, Houses of Parliment hold day of celebration as justification is succinct, clear and in wondrous procession. Pox on you!! Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Conservative Jew, Christians not of the Island, and of course all others!The work of men through their lives in concert is nothing for the Grecian Harp, Roman Law, a Beethoven Sonata, the Wonder of a Michaelangelo were all for nought, lost in the dismal burp of an improbable chance. The blather of an Olympian Hubris, reason of the unreasonable strikes again. fades away.... [/ QUOTE ] I'm genuinely curious about this. When you make a post like the above - do you choose your words to make the concepts you are trying to convey as simple and as clear as possible to the reader? Or do you have some other criteria for choosing them? |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
OP doesn't contribute anything to our understanding of the real world. HOW one comes to have no belief in a personal god is much more relevant than THAT they have no such belief.
let's sse - Little boys with dogs are happier than little boys without dogs. I'll prove this to you by taking away tommorrow all the dogs that little boys have. I'll ignore all the happy asian little boys that eat dogs and have pet pigs. Or all the happy swedish ones with no pets. See, tol' ya, I'm right. luckyme |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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I'm genuinely curious about this. When you make a post like the above - do you choose your words to make the concepts you are trying to convey as simple and as clear as possible to the reader? Or do you have some other criteria for choosing them? [/ QUOTE ] Huh? [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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Am I naive to believe that a number of people, if told tomorrow 'There is 100% NO GOD - here's the proof', would suddenly see things like rape, murder, theft, robbery etc. acceptable? I am not saying I agree or disagree with OP, just trying to add something that seems to be always forgoten in these conversations. And I am not only talking about devout believers here. There is a MASSIVE difference between non-belief in god, (and in the ramifications therin implied with regard to everlasting punishment/reward etc,) and knowing for a fact there is no god. [/ QUOTE ] There are perhaps 3 people on this board who claim that they'd behave as you describe. I'm pulling that number out of my ass. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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OP doesn't contribute anything to our understanding of the real world. HOW one comes to have no belief in a personal god is much more relevant than THAT they have no such belief. let's sse - Little boys with dogs are happier than little boys without dogs. I'll prove this to you by taking away tommorrow all the dogs that little boys have. I'll ignore all the happy asian little boys that eat dogs and have pet pigs. Or all the happy swedish ones with no pets. See, tol' ya, I'm right. luckyme [/ QUOTE ] Its a lot easier to adjust to no dog then to no heaven or no hope that prayers will be answered. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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There is a MASSIVE difference between non-belief in god, (and in the ramifications therin implied with regard to everlasting punishment/reward etc,) and knowing for a fact there is no god. [/ QUOTE ] There are no ramifications. Unless we ascribe characteristics to God, then any possible reward/punishment is essentially random. For every possible God who would reward a given action, there is a possible God who would punish that action in equal degree. But that's off the subject. Do you really think nonbelievers are significantly motivated by fears about the afterlife? To such an extent that their behavior would change meaningfully if they were to learn that there are definitely no gods? I really don't think afterlife is a significant motivator. Oh, it logically should be, for people who believe in it - but then again, the majority of people act in ways perfectly consistent with their surroundings and with self interest/reciprocal altruism. A person who believes that cheating on his wife will send him to hell is just as likely to cheat as a person who has no such belief. People don't tend to respond in their day-to-day lives to these kinds of threats. They do tend to respond to immediate pain and the threat of sanctions in life. Overall, I think morality is a matter of biology and conditioning - not of belief. And most people just don't want to go around causing chaos and hurting others. I was affected by the theistic ideas, and I became consumed with guilt and had regular panic attacks featuring the hell I was sure I would go to. In my case, I was no less moral after abandoning the idea of God, but I'm much more functional and self-confident now (which allows me to do much greater good overall). Oh yeah, did I mention I'm happier? |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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Its a lot easier to adjust to no dog then to no heaven or no hope that prayers will be answered. [/ QUOTE ] Complete appeal to emotion. If you're going that route, then I raise you self-determination and human dignity, and no hell. Let's just toss John Lennon's "Imagine" in there while we're at it - these kinds of emotional supports have nothing to do with religion. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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[ QUOTE ] Its a lot easier to adjust to no dog then to no heaven or no hope that prayers will be answered. [/ QUOTE ] Complete appeal to emotion. If you're going that route, then I raise you self-determination and human dignity, and no hell. Let's just toss John Lennon's "Imagine" in there while we're at it - these kinds of emotional supports have nothing to do with religion. [/ QUOTE ] You are in an ivory tower. Most people in this world are a lot more concerned with prayers being answered and going to heaven than they are with human dignity and self determination (even if they are, as you imply, mutually exclusive). As for no religion meaning no hell, most religious people either don't believe in it or think its pretty simple to avoid. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
I read this thread title as "retracting" instead of restating. I can only hope.
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Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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[ QUOTE ] I'm genuinely curious about this. When you make a post like the above - do you choose your words to make the concepts you are trying to convey as simple and as clear as possible to the reader? Or do you have some other criteria for choosing them? [/ QUOTE ] Huh? [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] What made you choose the words you did when trying to convey whatever idea or concept it was you were trying to convey? Were they chosen based on clarity and ease of understanding for the reader or something else? |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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I read this thread title as "retracting" instead of restating. I can only hope. [/ QUOTE ] Well, he's switched to merely dealing with the "adjustment period", rather trivial, rather than claiming something more universal and innate in a large portion of humans. Yawn. luckyme |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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Besides, there are plenty more countries beside Sweden with high atheist numbers and high happiness ratings. I linked the info in the other thread. [/ QUOTE ] If they're so happy, why aren't they able to reproduce at replacement levels? No one seems to have a reasonable answer for this. From a Darwinian point of view, a happy (fit, successful) species makes lots of offspring. What's going on with these high % atheist countries? |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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Am I naive to believe that a number of people, if told tomorrow 'There is 100% NO GOD - here's the proof', would suddenly see things like rape, murder, theft, robbery etc. acceptable? I am not saying I agree or disagree with OP, just trying to add something that seems to be always forgoten in these conversations. And I am not only talking about devout believers here. There is a MASSIVE difference between non-belief in god, (and in the ramifications therin implied with regard to everlasting punishment/reward etc,) and knowing for a fact there is no god. [/ QUOTE ] I see some really awful possibilities resulting from removing God across the board. Life would likely get worse for everyone. The higher % of church attendees in my neighborhood, the safer my person and property. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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What made you choose the words you did when trying to convey whatever idea or concept it was you were trying to convey? Were they chosen based on clarity and ease of understanding for the reader or something else? [/ QUOTE ] Best I can say is "painting a picture". In this case, obviously not "mechanical" but from my perspective there is an internal logic which connects the parts and pieces but if done properly, the "tone" of the piece is the expression of its origin. In no way am I associating myself with him but a "flow of consciousness" by some like James Joyce comes to mind. After your question I tried to find a piece by Gurdjieff in which he describes a large two story ship on a river with many passengers and the events forthcoming. Before he presents the piece he tells the reader that "pictures" of what is happening will rise in the readers consciousness of the whole episode. The whole episode is experienced in "imaginative pictures" with great clarity. I was truly amazed that he could do this and he did. Quite a piece, truly amazing. Aside from that the question arises, "from whence do your words come from". Not written on a paper of our mind. Seeking the solution to a mathematical problem is similar for at some point a "eureka" point is reached. the question is again"from whence does the "eureka" come from? On and on and on... |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
Karl Marx whose famous quote, "religion is the opium of the people", proposed that religion provides people with the following:
1. a sense of purpose and meaning 2. an activity designed to encourage social cohesion 3. a framework of rules designed as a form of social control. Although religion has been used as a reason for much violence and oppression, I agree that it does serve a useful purpose in today's social climate. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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[ QUOTE ] Besides, there are plenty more countries beside Sweden with high atheist numbers and high happiness ratings. I linked the info in the other thread. [/ QUOTE ] If they're so happy, why aren't they able to reproduce at replacement levels? No one seems to have a reasonable answer for this. From a Darwinian point of view, a happy (fit, successful) species makes lots of offspring. What's going on with these high % atheist countries? [/ QUOTE ] Yes, those Africans are having a ball in good old Africa...http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/3212/rofl2px3.gif You can't think of any reasons? For real? 1. Dumb people have more kids. That's fact. Dumb people are also more likely to be religious 2. Many churches shun birth control - the Catholics with over a billion members, forbid it. No birth control = heaps more kids, obviously 3. Religion actually teaches people to multiply. Having heaps of kids is considered a good thing. (Another one of the evils of religion as the world approaches overpopulation). |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Besides, there are plenty more countries beside Sweden with high atheist numbers and high happiness ratings. I linked the info in the other thread. [/ QUOTE ] If they're so happy, why aren't they able to reproduce at replacement levels? No one seems to have a reasonable answer for this. From a Darwinian point of view, a happy (fit, successful) species makes lots of offspring. What's going on with these high % atheist countries? [/ QUOTE ] Yes, those Africans are having a ball in good old Africa...http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/3212/rofl2px3.gif You can't think of any reasons? For real? 1. Dumb people have more kids. That's fact. Dumb people are also more likely to be religious 2. Many churches shun birth control - the Catholics with over a billion members, forbid it. No birth control = heaps more kids, obviously 3. Religion actually teaches people to multiply. Having heaps of kids is considered a good thing. (Another one of the evils of religion as the world approaches overpopulation). [/ QUOTE ] This is essentially a dodge. If we're interested in Western countries, and I am, it's difficult to find the secular society that is breeding at replacement. Ireland is the European champ with a 1st class economy, high church attendence and a solid birthrate. Compare that to Spain or Italy (talk about Catholic!), not Nigeria. There's something in it that makes the atheists understandably uncomfortable. When a cohort is not reproducing, something is amiss. It's easy to say that the cohort is 'too smart' to reproduce but I'm sure you can see how lame that sounds. My own guess is that the cohort is too selfish to reproduce. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
Believe its "stream of consciousness" not "flow of consciousness".
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Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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nobody can give me a reasonable answer for this [/ QUOTE ] ... [ QUOTE ] that sounds lame. i'm going to continue to assume that i'm right. [/ QUOTE ] |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
A dodge? How is pointing out that most of the world's Christians are FORBIDDEN BIRTH CONTROL a dodge?
You don't think married couples that are FORBIDDEN BIRTH CONTROL are going to breed more? [ QUOTE ] There's something in it that makes the atheists understandably uncomfortable. When a cohort is not reproducing, something is amiss. [/ QUOTE ] Uninhibited breeding makes me uncomfortable - it's already causing tremendous suffering and environmental destruction in many parts of the world. In addition to the points I made above, people who lead successful and busy lives tend not to reproduce as much. By your reasoning, something is amiss with more intelligent people, since they breed less, and people with <90 IQs are raving geniuses according to your strange Darwinian view of the world. We're not animals...and indeed the further we are from animals, the less we're going to breed, since other things consume our lives, our time and our thoughts. That's what's happening in the West, and it's not that hard to understand. Poverty, stupidity and lack of options = breeding. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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Most people in this world are a lot more concerned with prayers being answered and going to heaven than they are with human dignity and self determination [/ QUOTE ] If this were true, there would be far more than vague correlations indicating the power of religion to provide happiness. As it is, even if we accept that the correlation between religion and happiness describes a direct causal link (which it almost certainly does not), regular exercise still has a much greater impact on happiness than religion. It would be unreasonable to conclude that religion can provide a greater benefit than regular exercise, which is a low bar as I see it. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
Although it may or may not be true, that regular exercise is a greater influence on someones degree of happiness than religious affiliation, exercise will not be able to provide a sense of purpose and meaning in ones life as religion can.
Religion as a social institution provides people with auxiliary benefits. Even if the philosophical needs of churchgoers can be met through other means, I still do not predict religious influence waining anytime soon. I apologise if my posts are somehow illogical, but I am enjoying this discussion, and desired to add my viewpoint. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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[ QUOTE ] Most people in this world are a lot more concerned with prayers being answered and going to heaven than they are with human dignity and self determination [/ QUOTE ] If this were true, there would be far more than vague correlations indicating the power of religion to provide happiness. As it is, even if we accept that the correlation between religion and happiness describes a direct causal link (which it almost certainly does not), regular exercise still has a much greater impact on happiness than religion. It would be unreasonable to conclude that religion can provide a greater benefit than regular exercise, which is a low bar as I see it. [/ QUOTE ] Religion doesn't provide happiness to most people but rather lessens their unhappiness. Exercise doesn't do that to the same extent. Plus it is a lot harder to stick to. Meanwhile if I am wrong, then why are the great majority of moderately intelligent people religious? Is it because of other psychological flaws? Is it because you have to be more than moderately intelligent to be an atheist? (I can think of three regular posters here who tend to disprove that). Or is it because theists are actually correct? |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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Is it because you have to be more than moderately intelligent to be an atheist? (I can think of three regular posters here who tend to disprove that). [/ QUOTE ] Me, Nielsio, and...? |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
<font color="blue"> Meanwhile if I am wrong, then why are the great majority of moderately intelligent people religious? </font>
The answer is upbringing and education. The majority were likely brain-washed as children and most do not possess post graduate degrees or a high level of education in math or the hard sciences. Once in a great while, an extremely intelligent and very educated person will slip through the cracks who remains a theist, but this is an exception and very rare. There's no denying that skepticism increases among the post-graduate population. There's also no disputing your main point, but I'm not convinced that the realization of there being no such things as gods would have the detrimental effect on the "average" theist that you're implying it would. I was an average theist when I came upon this realization. I was stunned at first and hell yeah, I had to re-evaluate my whole world. But in the end, I not only coped, but became a HAPPIER and more balanced person! Many of the things that really bothered me (why kids die of cancer, how some of the outrageous stories in the bible could be true, etc.), suddenly made sense and were no longer the perplexing problems they had been for me. So if I'm any kind of example we can conclude that some would actually find solace in the truth. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
Going by their word, true believers would keep believing no matter what.
And I think rational ones would be quite relieved. Maybe after a few years of mourning. I disagree with you. But I do see your point. However consider that right now, most educated people who claim to be theists, aren't really so. They don't really believe this nonsense, they just think it's a good thing to believe in it. And all in all, most theists aren't that religious. Religion isn't such a big part of their lives. In my life I have personally converted several friends from theism to skepticism, and while some of them had a tough time at first, they ended up much happier and free in only a couple years time. People who can't bear giving up religion won't listen to any claims or arguments about the falsehood of their belief. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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Uninhibited breeding makes me uncomfortable - it's already causing tremendous suffering and environmental destruction in many parts of the world. [/ QUOTE ] World population is soon coming to a peak, last I heard. A couple more decades and the growth will end. [ QUOTE ] In addition to the points I made above, people who lead successful and busy lives tend not to reproduce as much. By your reasoning, something is amiss with more intelligent people, since they breed less, and people with <90 IQs are raving geniuses according to your strange Darwinian view of the world. [/ QUOTE ] You're free to attribute nonsense to me if that is your style. I'm interested in why reasonably comfortable, sectarian Western society of two generations ago was able to reproduce at above replacement levels and today, secular countries like Italy and Spain have birthrates near to 1.2 per couple. There was no huge spike in cohort intelligence, was there? No, they lost their religion. They also became somewhat more comfortable but not by a huge measure. I need to firgue out why, if they're soo happy, they fail to indulge in what many folks insist is the greatest pleasure in life, raising children. This from a atheist with only one child and none in my future. [ QUOTE ] We're not animals... [/ QUOTE ] What a very sectarian thing for you to say. There's hope for you yet. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
I remember that your big point on birth rates has been answered thoroughly several times, including why it most likely has no connection to atheism. But you spam it in so many threads that most people don't really bother with it anymore. |
Re: Restating My \"Religion Does Good\" Post More Explicitly
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I remember that your big point on birth rates has been answered thoroughly several times, including why it most likely has no connection to atheism. But you spam it in so many threads that most people don't really bother with it anymore. [/ QUOTE ] The atheists have a good alibi but so far no convincing explaination. If you prefer a one sided debate use 'ignore'. |
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