Any major leaks how I played this?? NLTRN
 

PokerStars Game #13014822376: Tournament #66055120, $22+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2007/11/03 - 12:39:19 (ET)
Table '66055120 1' 2-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: bpmst2 (1630 in chips)
Seat 2: yojorge (1370 in chips)
bpmst2: posts small blind 10
yojorge: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bpmst2 [As Kd]
bpmst2: raises 40 to 60
yojorge: calls 40
*** FLOP *** [8c Kh 7s]
yojorge: checks
bpmst2: bets 80
yojorge: raises 80 to 160
bpmst2: raises 180 to 340
yojorge: raises 180 to 520
bpmst2: raises 1050 to 1570 and is all-in
yojorge: calls 790 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [8c Kh 7s] [2s]
*** RIVER *** [8c Kh 7s 2s] [5h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
yojorge: shows [Ks 8s] (two pair, Kings and Eights)
bpmst2: shows [As Kd] (a pair of Kings)
yojorge collected 2740 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2740 | Rake 0
Board [8c Kh 7s 2s 5h]
Seat 1: bpmst2 (button) (small blind) showed [As Kd] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 2: yojorge (big blind) showed [Ks 8s] and won (2740) with two pair, Kings and Eights

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

I really dislike your min re-raise on the flop. Standard bet, when he min re-raises this is strong, I'd want to re-raise to 300 more here, and if he shoves I know im beat (I know in your head you're thinking you beat KQ, KJ, KT, but these are the only hands, maybe K9, and if she shoves, kudos to him). Player dependant though.

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

good point, i really thought I mighta behind figuring his range was maybe 88, 77, or 2 pair. Just was tough for me lay it down. Good point on re-raising stronger though

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

you 100% should have folded to his flop 4bet, minraise then small 4bet is always monstrous in all but the weirdest of situations

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

AK on 8K7 rainbow board.
"yojorge: checks
bpmst2: bets 80
yojorge: raises 80 to 160
bpmst2: raises 180 to 340
yojorge: raises 180 to 520"

I think it's pretty clear AK is beat at: "yojorge: raises 180 to 520."

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

You people are folding top pair top kicker in the first level of a 22?

Live a little bit.

Edit: Oh, and repop to like 500-600 when he raises you. If he flat calls get it in on turn, otherwise call his flop shove or stick the rest in if he keeps doing this min garbage.

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

cross-post this to the beginner's forum kthx

I think it needs to be said that some people really need to determine if they can provide any decent advice to this forum. If not, read more and post more hh's and get advice. I know I'm not the best poster/player in this forum by a long shot, but the advice in this thread is laughable.

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

This is a perfect example of why getting it all in with tptk makes a lot of sense for metagame considerations . If you fold top pair this easily , you will be easily exploited during the course of your future hands with this individual or from others who may be watching .

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

No, I think that we should all botch as much advice as humanly possible. I just played a player who wouldn't even bet 1/14th of the pot unless he had top pair. He played so tight I am convinced he lurks here.

AK? On this board? I'm stacked every time. The min-bet could be middle pair, a draw etc. I would straight-up shove this flop after the re-raise, you'll get a ton of wtf calls.

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

How bad is calling his flop min-raise? And why is it a bad move?

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

[ QUOTE ]
How bad is calling his flop min-raise? And why is it a bad move?

[/ QUOTE ]

the minraise to 160?

bc it could be a worse K, 8X, straight draws, etc

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

[ QUOTE ]
You people are folding top pair top kicker in the first level of a 22?

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AK? On this board? I'm stacked every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for restoring me to sanity.

After seeing the first few posts, I was starting to wonder how much of an idiot I am for getting stacked here almost every time.

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

People that fold AK on this flop I'd play all day at the $550s and $1100s. your hand is huge heads up and it's totally standard to get this all in.

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

I would love to get this in normally, but not against this line against a player who takes this line. jeez, its hard to get me to fold middle pair let alone tptk normally, but this line is not normal. Seriously, what the hell are people saying "get it in" putting him on? this is KQ just about never.

So to reiterate, I would never normally fold this hand on this flop, But I normally would have nothing to do with minraising either! 3betting or even 4betting this hand AI is standard, but not 5 betting it! especially when the guy is begging for a call

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

the betting was weird, which is why AK looks beat. If the OP bet, the villain, raised, and the OP shoved, it'd be normal and certainly reasonable, with the betting going the way it did, it looks closer to when two limit players are reraising each other because they know they have the nuts - except all the hero has here is top pair top kicker. I'd expect top two or trips here more often than a weaker king. (hey, i think this is one long poorly written sentence)

I'd probably end up shoving or calling a shove here anyway, but I wouldn't expect to win.

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

editing not allowed, but I doubt trips after looking again. You probably see a reraise preflop with 8s or 7s. the weird betting looks a lot like k8 or k7. i wish the results weren't posted, but it still looks like what he shows up with.

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

I disagree about a reraise preflop: it is standard from a strong player, but this guy's flop line (whatever he had) shows him to be pretty sucky, and in my experience most sucky players do no reraise 77/88 pre. But I do agree that I wish results hadn't been posted.

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

Dear OP,

Thanks for posting results. Most of the responses you are getting are completely results-oriented.

Regards,

HokieGreg

P.S.- The focus in this thread should be that he needs to raise a lot more on his 4bet.

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

greg, your post was really unhelpful, no need for the sarcasm: it has already been mentioned that posting the results was a mistake, and that raises needed to be larger. As for the posts being results oriented, i suspect you are only saying that because of the number of posts that say "fold" (ie any), when infact i deeply believe that a fold is the correct line anyway (yes it is possible i was swung by the results, but i genuinely put thought into it, and feel it is a fold against the opponents range, not just the hand they happened to have. as i commented: is this really ever KQ?

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

Funny how the only people that agree with me in this thread are BCM, ChicagoRy, and TNixon.

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

funny how they are high stakes players and this is a $22 tournament . . .

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

Good point

/thread

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

but seriously greg, what kind of post was that? maybe i am wrong and you lot are right (i am more than happy to accept the posters you named are mostly better than me), but it is bs to back up your view by pointing out who agrees with you, it should be settled by reason. the whole point of this forum is to think through hands, not say "i'm right youre wrong"

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

It's a 22 dollar tournament and you are playing a breakeven low-stakes player. You raised preflop in position. People play horribly and over-value hands oop in raised pots. This is the reason we raise in position and play tight oop. You are giving villain way too much credit.

We don't have a read that villain doesn't play marginal hands this way. We have tptk on a dry board in a 22. Some villains are just not capable of making a normal-sized raise. It doesn't automatically mean "i have the nuts." I'm sure I could dig up plenty of hh's where i get 4bet or 5bet and villain is just over-playing top pair or some garbage draw. It's just such a standard play at this buyin level.

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

3-bet more on the flop. 500 is good. Shove on turn if get called. Call if get shoved.

If you decide to 3-bet that little then you have weird situation if villain does something like min 4-bet. This is almost always a monster though but you're getting compelling odds. So, maybe call and re-evaluate on turn?

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

[ QUOTE ]
funny how they are high stakes players and this is a $22 tournament . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

Like most of the players any of us face in a 110 or 220 are playing way different than a decent 22 player.... Most of the people that sit in 110s are just breakeven or losing 22-33 players anyways.

The only person you might say that isn't brushed up on low-mid stakes wide ranging donks would be BCM. But that's only because he plays a [censored] ton of 220-550-1100s, so on a whole he's used to better players. As for me, hokie and probably Nixon too... I think our opinion is valid and should not be discounted because we play up to 110-220.

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

FWIW, I play at these stakes as well, and TNixon is always moving up and down, so I think he has requisite, and recent experience there as well.

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

I was just replying to an ignorant comment.

I don't know what your post really means, but Nixon agrees with stacking off here. So we're in agreement I think, Dave.

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

It was an annotation, that if they can't trust the high limit players (LOL), at least some of us still play small.

Touche on the weirdness of this whole thread. I was with you.

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

[ QUOTE ]
and TNixon is always moving up and down

[/ QUOTE ]
I seem to do a lot more moving down than moving up.

I don't think it's supposed to work that way.

:/

The lion's share of my games are 55 or lower, though. 1400 <= $10, 2500 $20-$30, 1400 $50-$60, and only 500 over that.

I do play regulars though (on FT, where the regulars are fairly close to PS turbos for the first 15 mins or so), and I'm still getting stacked here almost always. In a turbo, I'd be even MORE likely to get em in. Far too many villains are willing to stack off with hands as bad as second or even underpairs to the board for me to consider folding.

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's a 22 dollar tournament and you are playing a breakeven low-stakes player. You raised preflop in position. People play horribly and over-value hands oop in raised pots. This is the reason we raise in position and play tight oop. You are giving villain way too much credit.

We don't have a read that villain doesn't play marginal hands this way. We have tptk on a dry board in a 22. Some villains are just not capable of making a normal-sized raise. It doesn't automatically mean "i have the nuts." I'm sure I could dig up plenty of hh's where i get 4bet or 5bet and villain is just over-playing top pair or some garbage draw. It's just such a standard play at this buyin level.

[/ QUOTE ]


The bolded parts are soooooooooo true. At first it was hard for me to break the common "min re raise=nuts" way of thinking, but after you look people up often enough you will find that MOST PEOPLE just don't understand how to bet. So it's not really some crazy nutty hand most of the time, it's middle pair, a draw, or a bluff trying to "save" chips.

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

I never see these 4 bet 5 bet things. But after he raises I am betting 1/2 or more of whatever he has left and calling a shove. I want the money in before something kills my action or he connects. Glad I'm not the only one going broke.

With a good read, I could flat call this and evaluate the turn. A semi passive donking into me for pot or shoving after a cr is throwing up some serious "your tptk is beat". If he is aggro enough he might do that with air or 2nd pair I already got it in on the flop. Anything less and he makes a decision for all his chips.

I do think the check minraise 4bet line by most villians is almost always 2 pair or better trying to get us in gently. He might stab at that flop if we are cbetting maniacs and he is frustrated. They usually play the turn face up after this little move.

As I said, glad to see better players than me go broke. But I'm not opposed to giving villian a little credit when he screams 'I have it'. So often they play it face up on later streets and will let us showdown or get away cheaply when they go into their donk extract mode.

Mike

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

chicagory, my post was not serious, it was meant to point out the foolishness of greg's post (i hoped that would be made clear by my post starting just below it starting "but seriously")

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure I could dig up plenty of hh's where i get 4bet or 5bet and villain is just over-playing top pair or some garbage draw. It's just such a standard play at this buyin level.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've played lots of 22's. I have 8 hands where villian raises me twice on the flop and we get to showdown.

6 out of 8 villian had tpwk (out of all the hands none of these guys ever had a kicker higher than 6)
1 out of 8 villian had two pair.
1 out of 8 villian had nut straight.

But ... in BOTH hands where villian had 2p/str, the flop action went min raise/4-bet small. In ALL of the other hands it went raise/all-in. Granted it's a small sample, but pretty interesting nonetheless.

I think tmc's advice is actually pretty good here. You should get the money in here normally (i.e. if he pushes), but this line stinks so much of a big hand you can think about laying it down.

Re: Any major leaks how I played this??
 

Thank you all for your input.. I know I played it poorly and was looking for the best line to take here. A lot of interesting perspectives, but it seems the general consensus is that my re-raise was far too weak, which would give me a better line on his hand.