I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

This was inspired by tomdemaine's post.

I would happily do god's bidding if he showed me he was in fact god via a miracle or two, and gave me some good things to do to help the world. Or even just to spread the word, since you know, he's really real, and people ought to know about it. And since apparently not believing also sends you to hell for eternity, it would seem pretty pressing to me to convert people I love. Although, I would ask him "WTF is with hell" if he's such a nice guy, there's not much I can do about it, so I'd just go on preaching.

I would not, however, commit any immoral acts which did not have something good come from them in the material world. I would kill a guy if god showed me that he was about to kill some other people and the only way to stop him was by killing him. But I wouldn't kill him just on god's word that he was bad. If he is bad, surely he will try to do bad things, and I can be in position to witness his attempt and stop it, thus both showing proof of his badness and also killing him. There would be no reason for me to act prior to this, unless god had been showing me this for some time and I had built up trust in his decisions AND it was clear that the time wasted by waiting would allow for another crime to be committed.

Similarly, I would not commit any immoral acts even if good would come from them. I of course define my morality solely on how much good comes from my actions, so that is a bit of a useless explanation. Well, let's have a few examples to clarify what I mean, since I suck at communicating. First, let's say god tells me that the new Jesus will be born if I rape some woman who would not otherwise have sex with me. I would absolutely not do that, under any circumstances.

Similarly, I would not kill my child as a testament of my faith.

God asking either of those would be deplorable and I would not hesitate to tell him so and implore him to set a better example for his creation.

Do you all think this is wrong, evil, or sinful?

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

For you it probably makes sense, but it all hinges on your definitions of evil, sinful, bad, good, immoral, deplorable which like the rest of us' views are probably fairly debatable.

For example in your example: Ff you refuse to rape a woman to allow for a messiah to be born, then you are putting your own moral view and her fate above the rest of humanity's potential for eternal salvation - sounds like a very selfish act to me. Isn't it ok for 2 people to suffer so the rest can be saved - surely it would in no way put the world 'worse off' than it is today?

Moral debate is never easy.

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

Im pretty sure God's morals are more important than your "morals"

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

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Im pretty sure God's morals are more important than your "morals"

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Please show me the proof that a God, should it exist, is benevolent or interested in the greater good. I can't think of a single reason they would be. If you look at the Christian bible, that's overwhelmingly not the case.

Also, the foundation of free will (and the very idea that humans can be free agents) rest on the notion that justice, morality and in a broader sense, structure, exist independently of God, and that we can come to valid insights on our own.

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

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Im pretty sure God's morals are more important than your "morals"

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I know cause might makes right amirite?

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

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Im pretty sure God's morals are more important than your "morals"

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I know cause might makes right amirite?

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Good insight! Let's fight in the night out of spite for the blight by the site where the kite hit the light.

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

I think this is the most courageous and the most logical position. It may also be the most correct position (if we were to learn that a wrathful God does exist, that God could very well be demiurgic). Of course, it would be a [censored] situation to be in, under the imminent threat of hell.

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

By most definitions of God it is imposible for God to do wrong. God invented the concept of right and wrong and gave it to humans.

Now if we are talking about some sort of "weak" god who didnt invent the universe and everything in it (including morality) then maybe you have a case

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

quote: Similarly, I would not kill my child as a testament of my faith.


If this is some kind of glancing stab at the crucifixion of Jesus I'd just like to note that most religious people don't see it like that. God knows how to reconcile the problem of sin for mankind. Its through the person of his perfect and blameless Son. God knows if his Son can do what he did that all of mankind that believe on Jesus will be reconciled to God. Jesus as a man had free will. In the Garden of Gethesmane he prays a prayer that not his will but that his father's will be done. Why does he allow his father's will to be substituted for his own? Because he knows God is good, he loves God and he loves his fellow men. He didn't seek primacy. He could have refused to do what he did and stayed as the only child of God, but instead he made all who believed on him fellow brothers and sisters as "children of God". Why? Because "man has no greater love than to give his life for a friend". God in sending his Son knew it was only a temporary situation. That his Son could do it, that his Son would be resurrected. In effect his Son could die a physical but not a spiritual death and prove that God can defeat death. Jesus is now much higher than any angel in heaven.

If it simplifies things think of God as the father of a fireman. A fireman knows he can get killed doing what he does but he does it anyways. The father of the fireman knows its a risky occupation for his son but he's proud of him. In the case of God he knew he was getting his son back in even better than his original condition and he was getting a lot more "children" along with him.

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quote: Similarly, I would not kill my child as a testament of my faith.


If this is some kind of glancing stab at the crucifixion of Jesus I'd just like to note that most religious people don't see it like that.

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http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5...amisaacvf8.jpg

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

I thought OP meant that if he were Abraham he would refuse to sacrifice Isaac on God's instructions (Isaac didn't wind up killed, as it turned out, but it was one of the classic "test of faith" episodes in the old testament.)

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

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Im pretty sure God's morals are more important than your "morals"

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only in the sense that the concentration camp guards morals are more important than the inmates.

chez

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

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By most definitions of God it is imposible for God to do wrong. God invented the concept of right and wrong and gave it to humans.

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This is a fallacious argument. There is no reason to believe that a creator is more moral than his creations. Even if God created a moral context, he can still be evaluated within that context (think of it like this - if I design an IQ test, does that mean I have the highest IQ in the world?). Finally, there is nothing to indicate that God's moral standard is superior to any independent moral standard created and used by humans.

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

This debate is massively dependant on people's definitions of 'god', 'god's will', and the like. Also their definition of whether god=omnipitent+good, if this is the case then obv it would be wrong to deny him any request.

Although, that also depends upon your definition of 'wrong'.

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

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This debate is massively dependant on people's definitions of 'god', 'god's will', and the like. Also their definition of whether god=omnipitent+good, if this is the case then obv it would be wrong to deny him any request.

Although, that also depends upon your definition of 'wrong'.

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If God is both omnipotent and good, then he can't authentically make any immoral request. Because God is omnipotent, he never has to incur any cost in order to achieve a goal. Because God is good, he can only desire "bad" when it's a necessary cost in order to achieve a greater good.

But I think the problem of evil renders an omnipotent benevolent God impossible, regardless. If there is a God, that God must be either imperfect in power or imperfect in love.

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

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This debate is massively dependant on people's definitions of 'god', 'god's will', and the like. Also their definition of whether god=omnipitent+good, if this is the case then obv it would be wrong to deny him any request.

Although, that also depends upon your definition of 'wrong'.

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If God is both omnipotent and good, then he can't authentically make any immoral request. Because God is omnipotent, he never has to incur any cost in order to achieve a goal. Because God is good, he can only desire "bad" when it's a necessary cost in order to achieve a greater good.

But I think the problem of evil renders an omnipotent benevolent God impossible, regardless. If there is a God, that God must be either imperfect in power or imperfect in love.

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That was mostly my point.

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

Finally, there is nothing to indicate that God's moral standard is superior to any independent moral standard created and used by humans.

Yes there is, if God by definition cant be wrong then if he says his way is better then it is

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

"imperfect in power or imperfect in love. "

Unless he willingly does not fully utilize his power in order to allow his creation free will. And if he is omniscient then he knows that it is better to have free will and evil than no free will and no evil.

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

wow you suck at logic

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Finally, there is nothing to indicate that God's moral standard is superior to any independent moral standard created and used by humans.

Yes there is, if God by definition cant be wrong then if he says his way is better then it is

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well if you're going to start defining "god" as something that: can't lie, can't be wrong, and says his way is better -- as essential characteristics, you're really just abusing the word to make yourself correct.

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

Well im pretty sure those are the christian definitions of god and it seems most religous debate centers around the christian god

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Well im pretty sure those are the christian definitions of god and it seems most religous debate centers around the christian god

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the "christian god" comes down from heaven and says "hey guys. it turns out that when i implied there was something inherently wrong about lying, i was putting one over on you. i actually lied a lot. i had good reasons for doing it though."

all the christians hang their heads in shame, admitting: "well we were wrong. turns out god doesn't exist after all..."

when a christian says "god can't lie" they're describing god, they're not defining the word.

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First, let's say god tells me that the new Jesus will be born if I rape some woman who would not otherwise have sex with me. I would absolutely not do that, under any circumstances.


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what if she was really really hot

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wow you suck at logic

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seems unlikely but pray tell

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

I used that exact example on purpose to make the point that if it rested on humanity's salvation, god could and SHOULD do it the way he did before, or at least in some other non-violent way. He's GOD after all, right? So he should be able to find another way. And it's very wrong of him to force two people to hurt themselves when there's another way and he knows it.

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"imperfect in power or imperfect in love. "

Unless he willingly does not fully utilize his power in order to allow his creation free will. And if he is omniscient then he knows that it is better to have free will and evil than no free will and no evil.

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Why?? Just to see what we'll do??? Although I like my free will, I don't see how it is in any way inherently better than none, in god's eyes.

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

"he knows that it is better to have free will and evil than no free will and no evil. "

Why do you believe this?

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

Puppet love isn't really love at all, but love freely given is to be greatly prized.

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

Actually, as Sephus noted, it was a reference to Abraham and Isaac, not Jesus. Jesus was just a big scapegoat. Do you really think it's moral to allow for somebody else to forgive your actions, whatever you may have done??? And further, to forgive them solely by having himself tortured and killed??? How is that right by any definition?? Also, couldn't god find a better way to forgive rather than have his son tortured and killed???

I don't see it as the fireman example you set above. I see it as the father sending in the son whenever anybody else starts a fire and also when there are other ways to stop the fire which save everybody inside but also put no fireman at risk. There's no NEED to send in the son in the first place, and it's wrong to ask him to do so in the first case, and much more wrong to do so when you (as god) could come up with another way which harms no one.

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

This is my position also and (needless to say) I think it's the moral one.

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

5 points for hilarity, but still, no.

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

So he made us simply because he wanted some one to love him and oohhh & ahhhh at his creation???

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

Well this is what Jesus has to say about his relationship with his Father:

John 10:30 (The Message)

25-30Jesus answered, "I told you, but you don't believe. Everything I have done has been authorized by my Father, actions that speak louder than words. You don't believe because you're not my sheep. My sheep recognize my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them real and eternal life. They are protected from the Destroyer for good. No one can steal them from out of my hand. The Father who put them under my care is so much greater than the Destroyer and Thief. No one could ever get them away from him. I and the Father are one heart and mind.

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Yes there is, if God by definition cant be wrong

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...then any argument about whether he's correct is circular.

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

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Puppet love isn't really love at all, but love freely given is to be greatly prized.

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Can you put this in coherent terms, or does all the rhetorical fluff have you tuckered out?

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

all the christians hang their heads in shame, admitting: "well we were wrong. turns out god doesn't exist after all..."

I dont see whats wrong with this statement. Just because there is some sort of creator doesnt mean a christian has to call him god

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

because we have free will?

sounds circular? why do you trust logic .... its logical?

Re: I would NOT do God\'s will if he were immoral
 

your point?

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Our love has more worth if we are free beings.

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wow you suck at logic

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seems unlikely but pray tell

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LOL