party vs stars difference
 

i dont know how to explain this
but im reaching the end of my rope in this matter
is it possible to be up 200k on partypoker with sng,s (sample size 10.000)
and being down 70k on stars also with sample size 10.000
with the note that my last 6000 sng's on stars the loss stabilized
i lost 70k in the first 4000
and now with vip milestone bonuses and ffp i can keep it even but with horrendous swings of 100 buyins up and down

right know my mind is playing tricks on me
i have the feeling that my allins are sucked out more on stars than party
suckouts happen and are part of the game ,i never ever complained about this on the table or anywhere else
when they happen just started up a new game and went on
but now
my last 100buyin downswing its so dominant happening in my mind that its not even funny anymore
i even got taunted from another regular who's got the same impression according to his remarks

i know the level of play is different on stars and party so a litle difference can be explained
but is the difference in skill realy that big?
does anybody know a good program to load my hand histories in to calculate my sklansky bucks from all allin matchups
to clearify this for me that im seeing ghosts
and that indeed the skill difference is dominant
or show that maybe my feeling is right that my sklansky bucks are behind the results
because of some rare statistical occurance

regards

Re: party vs stars difference
 

PokerEV - http://pokerevsoftware.com/

Re: party vs stars difference
 

Of course you can have worse results against tougher players with a different blind structure (and a different number of players at the table). If your ROI is low to begin with, it can easily become negative in a tougher game.

Don't confuse downward trends with downswings.

Re: party vs stars difference
 

do you have PokerTracker?

If so, go back over your allins. You have a big enough sample that they should converge on the correct odds. I'll bet they do.

Re: party vs stars difference
 

ill use pokeroffice
i find pokeroffice a real nice program to use realtime on the tables, but ill experience that its a little poor for analysis for past results the filter options are a bit limited
the thing is i cant use the pokeroffice database for pokerev
i red somewhere that this will be upgraded?
are there other "luckmeter" programms availible?

Re: party vs stars difference
 

Party is fixed so you always win.

Just something I don't understand - why don't you just play Party and not Stars?

Re: party vs stars difference
 

[ QUOTE ]
why don't you just play Party and not Stars?

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, probably because he can't anymore.

Re: party vs stars difference
 

I firmly believe that PStars deals HANDS not CARDS, thereby allowing for close to undetectable manipulation of the games. The result is a distribution of starting hands as one would expect over the long term. However, the play of hands from the flop is not normal. The boards tend to better hit more hands, driving up the pot and thus the rake. Nothing like juicing the river card to boost the pot and the rake

I'm on my final and third experience with PStars. The result has been the same each time. Make a deposit, then run about 4BB/100 on the LHE short tables over 10K hands, and then suffer suckout after suckout after suckout on the river after having 90 percent plus pot equity going to the river until I've given back all previous winnings and most of the deposit.

Given the lack of choice for U.S. players wanting to play online, I guess after this final PStars experiment, I'm done with online poker.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say in response to your post is that your imagination is not playing tricks on you. If you can play somewhere other than PStars, then dot it. Otherwise consider quiting online play.

Re: party vs stars difference
 

[ QUOTE ]
The boards tend to better hit more hands, driving up the pot and thus the rake. Nothing like juicing the river card to boost the pot and the rake

[/ QUOTE ]
Your theory is testable. Would you care to bet a large amount of money on it? How about getting 10:1 odds? If you don't believe it enough to back your words at 10:1 odds, why are you trying to convince other people?

Re: party vs stars difference
 

Testing theories is for suckers.

Clearly the problem is far too subtle to be able to test, but obvious enough for players in the know (taps nose) to notice it.

Re: party vs stars difference
 

[ QUOTE ]
Testing theories is for suckers.

Clearly the problem is far too subtle to be able to test, but obvious enough for players in the know (taps nose) to notice it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. It's sublte, obvious to alert players, and it's devastating.

The following covers the period 9/21/07 through yesterday. All hands played LHE short.
[image]http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9...rsshortlg9.jpg[/image]

Re: party vs stars difference
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Testing theories is for suckers.

Clearly the problem is far too subtle to be able to test, but obvious enough for players in the know (taps nose) to notice it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. It's sublte, obvious to alert players, and it's devastating.

The following covers the period 9/21/07 through yesterday. All hands played LHE short.
[image]http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9...rsshortlg9.jpg[/image]

[/ QUOTE ]

Tilting is so bad for you

Re: party vs stars difference
 

I take it you're being serious, zerosum? If not lol @ me, leveled

Re: party vs stars difference
 

party is better $$$ , just stick to party then

Re: party vs stars difference
 

[ QUOTE ]
Agreed. It's sublte, obvious to alert players, and it's devastating.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you just trolling, or do you actually believe this?

I'm offering to bet against you. If you believe PokerStars deals are far enough from random to be "obvious to alert players," this is a chance for you to make a lot of money! If you aren't willing to bet, please come up with an amusing excuse for why we should believe something absurd that you don't believe enough to bet on, just like the other whiners.

Re: party vs stars difference
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Agreed. It's sublte, obvious to alert players, and it's devastating.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you just trolling, or do you actually believe this?

I'm offering to bet against you. If you believe PokerStars deals are far enough from random to be "obvious to alert players," this is a chance for you to make a lot of money! If you aren't willing to bet, please come up with an amusing excuse for why we should believe something absurd that you don't believe enough to bet on, just like the other whiners.

[/ QUOTE ]

willing to tack on another $20k on top of whatever phizon is betting

Re: party vs stars difference
 

Outline in detail your investigation plan.

Re: party vs stars difference
 

No tilting. I was wondering how much time would pass before that tired, old excuse/explanation would make an appearance.

Re: party vs stars difference
 

[ QUOTE ]
I take it you're being serious, zerosum? If not lol @ me, leveled

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm being as serious as a heart attack.

Re: party vs stars difference
 

[ QUOTE ]
Outline in detail your investigation plan.

[/ QUOTE ]
You didn't answer whether you are willing to put your money where your mouth is. If you believe your words enough to accuse PokerStars publicly of cheating, does that mean you believe your accusations enough to bet on them, or are you now retracting your claims and apologizing to PokerStars and everyone you tried to convince, or are you dishonest and want to keep asserting things you don't believe?

The details depend on exactly what patterns you claim. You have to be more specific than just that draws hit too frequently. At least how much more frequently do they hit? Do flush draws hit 10% too often, or is it more subtle than that, but still somehow "obvious" to observant players? Do you believe all hands are rigged this way? Does it only happen to punish players who are ahead? Does it only happen in big pots? Remember, for the pattern to be relevant, it has to show up often enough to affect win rates, so royal flushes appearing on the board twice as often as they should and aces getting cracked 0.01% extra are not viable patterns.

Just about any deviation from randomness you claim can be tested by collecting a substantial amount of unbiased data (such as hands where all hole cards are known) and analyzing it mathematically. Less subtle patterns can be tested by using data whose bias is bounded, say hands where both players were all-in by the turn.

I am a mathematician, but if you don't trust me, we can pay an independent gambling expert such as Michael Shackleford of WizardOfOdds.com to perform the routine Bayesian analysis comparing the hypothesis that the deals are completely fair and random against the hypothesis that the deals follow whatever pattern you claim. If you are right, you will be over 99% to win. If you are wrong, you will be over 99% to lose.

Are you willing to bet, or not?

Re: party vs stars difference
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont know how to explain this
but im reaching the end of my rope in this matter
is it possible to be up 200k on partypoker with sng,s (sample size 10.000)


[/ QUOTE ]

ROFLMAO!!!
200k on sngs? s\n?

Re: party vs stars difference
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Outline in detail your investigation plan.

[/ QUOTE ]
You didn't answer whether you are willing to put your money where your mouth is. If you believe your words enough to accuse PokerStars publicly of cheating, does that mean you believe your accusations enough to bet on them, or are you now retracting your claims and apologizing to PokerStars and everyone you tried to convince, or are you dishonest and want to keep asserting things you don't believe?

The details depend on exactly what patterns you claim. You have to be more specific than just that draws hit too frequently. At least how much more frequently do they hit? Do flush draws hit 10% too often, or is it more subtle than that, but still somehow "obvious" to observant players? Do you believe all hands are rigged this way? Does it only happen to punish players who are ahead? Does it only happen in big pots? Remember, for the pattern to be relevant, it has to show up often enough to affect win rates, so royal flushes appearing on the board twice as often as they should and aces getting cracked 0.01% extra are not viable patterns.

Just about any deviation from randomness you claim can be tested by collecting a substantial amount of unbiased data (such as hands where all hole cards are known) and analyzing it mathematically. Less subtle patterns can be tested by using data whose bias is bounded, say hands where both players were all-in by the turn.

I am a mathematician, but if you don't trust me, we can pay an independent gambling expert such as Michael Shackleford of WizardOfOdds.com to perform the routine Bayesian analysis comparing the hypothesis that the deals are completely fair and random against the hypothesis that the deals follow whatever pattern you claim. If you are right, you will be over 99% to win. If you are wrong, you will be over 99% to lose.

Are you willing to bet, or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are the one who proposed a bet. You would do well to remain calm and logical, as I would expect of a mathematician.

I agree with your observation that
[ QUOTE ]
Just about any deviation from randomness you claim can be tested by collecting a substantial amount of unbiased data (such as hands where all hole cards are known) and analyzing it mathematically.

[/ QUOTE ]

You first need to address a basic threshold issue. I want you to determine the amount of data you need to be able to conclude, to a determined level of confidence, weather the deal is or is not fair.

Don't get caught up in complex particulars. Pick a very simple scenario, then use that as your basis for determining the amount and type of data you need.

I am not so stupid as to agree to a wager before the terms are concluded. You have the burden of proving that you can at least obtain the data required for a simple test case.

I do not believe that you or anyone outside of PStars can obtain the amount of data that you would require.

Prove me wrong, then we can talk. Otherwise your bluff has been called.

Re: party vs stars difference
 

Here is what you said:
[ QUOTE ]

close to undetectable manipulation
...
Nothing like juicing the river card to boost the pot and the rake
...
suckout after suckout after suckout on the river after having 90 percent plus pot equity going to the river until I've given back all previous winnings and most of the deposit.
...
It's sublte, obvious to alert players, and it's devastating.


[/ QUOTE ]
You are accusing PokerStars of manipulating the deck to cheat you out of at least your deposits. Do you understand that those are accusations not only of incompetence, but of cheating, and that that is a serious matter? If you believe your neighbor is a child molester, and have evidence, you should speak up according to the strength of your evidence. However, you are a liar if you try to convince other people that your neighbor is a child molester when you don't believe it yourself.

[ QUOTE ]

You are the one who proposed a bet.


[/ QUOTE ]
You accused PokerStars of cheating. I proposed a bet. Money talks and BS walks. That you aren't jumping at the possibility of making money off of your claims is a sign you don't believe them.

It's time for you to state that you are willing to put your money where your mouth is, or else admit that you were just whining, and that you made a serious accusation you don't believe.

The details of a fair test are easy to work out if you specify a pattern instead of just that the cards are obviously unfair. If you think 11 out draws hit 3/4 of the time instead of 1/4, then every time the draw hits confirms your hypothesis relative to the fair hypothesis by a factor of 3, and every time the draw misses it confirms the fair hypothesis by a factor of 3. It would be normal to set a number of trails to consider ahead of time, say 100 for a difference this big, and use more trials in the extremely unlikely event that the Bayesian analysis does not signficantly favor one hypothesis over the other. Using a threshold of 0.01, that would happen if the 11 out draws hit 48 to 52 times, which happens less than one time in a million according to either hypothesis. It takes more trials if the claimed deviation from randomness is more subtle, but keep in mind you said that the cheating was obvious, and that you kept losing with more than 90% equity.

If you don't understand the math, you can ask someone else who does, and you should hear that this is a fair test. If you are right, you will win with high probability. If you are wrong, you will lose with high probability.

Do you believe your statements enough to bet on them, or are you going to retract them, or are you a dishonest person who is trying to convince others of a serious accusation without believing it, violating a Commandment?

By the way, this should be contrasted with Absolute Poker, which has admitted that there was cheating by at least one insider. There was actual evidence in September, and I offered to bet against multiple people including an offer to bet $10,000 against Julian West that the cheating was real. It is important to distinguish that case from the hundreds of absurd, implausible accusations faced by every gaming site.
<font color="white">. </font>

Re: party vs stars difference
 

The hysteria with which you proceed is truly amazing.

Yet again, you have chosen to ignore my request for your opinion regarding the type of data and the amount of such data that you would require for conclusive testing. Let's just leave aside for the moment whether you or anyone outside of PStars could possibly procure it.

I do not take my expressed opinion lightly. However, I do realize that the few moments I did spend on the original post were not sufficient to describe the experiences I have had at PStars. Again, however, I did not expect my quick commentary to induce in anyone the sort of apoplectic rage that has stricken you.

Over the course of the next day or two, I will put together a better detailed and better targeted description of my PStars experiences. Today I simply lack even 10 minutes more time to devote to this issue. I trust you will understand and not construe this as evasion. Perhaps the forthcoming description will enable you to return to a calm and logical frame of mind, and then we can have a constructive dialogue.

Re: party vs stars difference
 

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think 11 out draws hit 3/4 of the time instead of 1/4... It would be normal to set a number ... say 100 for a difference this big...
It takes more trials if the claimed deviation from randomness is more subtle


[/ QUOTE ]
Yet again, you have chosen to ignore my request for your opinion regarding the type of data and the amount of such data that you would require for conclusive testing.

[/ QUOTE ]
You denied that I addressed that immediately after I answered your question. I mentioned that a sample of 100 11-out draws would very likely be conclusive for some types of patterns. I stated that more hands would be required for other types of patterns which differ less from random. That's about as specific as I can get when you still haven't specified what patterns you claim are so obvious.

I have asked you three times whether you believe your statements enough to bet on them. You have dodged that question each time. This shows that you don't believe the very serious (but implausible) charges you have made against the poker site with the best reputation. Further, it makes you look terrible--you don't have the integrity to admit it, and you didn't have the sense to drop it when you were challenged.

An honest person might say, "Yes, I'd like to bet. How can we set up a fair test?" Or, an honest person might say, "I used to believe that, but now I'm not sure. I don't want to bet because I think it's likely that I was wrong. I'd still like to see the results of a test, because I'm not as convinced as you are that the site is fair, but I no longer claim that I must have been cheated." Both of those are honest positions.

You are not taking an honest position. You want to waste everyone's time telling stories you don't believe, perhaps because you feel less foolish for believing them at first if other people seem to be convinced. You are suggesting your claims might be impossible to test, when a professional mathematician is telling you that your claims can be tested (and has explained how some deviations from randomness can be tested). Accusations of cheating are very serious, both for players and for sites, and they should not be made unless you believe them.

Re: party vs stars difference
 

I wonder why you all discuss moronic claims and nonsense but not the OP? To me it looks like 10k SNGs are pretty statistically significant sample.

I would rather ask the OP to post graphs for PS and PP.

It's widely speculated that party poker is beter place to play than pokerstars (softer etc) but I've never seen good sample proving it.

It could have also other explanations why particular strategy performs better on one site vs another and I would be interested in that.

Re: party vs stars difference
 

To get back to the origonal point of this thread...

I am the same way with a much smaller sample size. Decent ROI on Party and Full tilt but I can't seem to win on Stars. I think there are a few reasons such as, the caliber of play is better on Stars, differences in blind structures play to certain people's strengths more than others, and OMG ITS RIGGED! (just kidding on the last one)

I would even say that it is a possibility that even the appearance of the software may affect some people. Personally, I prefer Full tilt's software to others as it seems the easiest to use. sometimes Stars frustrates me when you have a few windows open and you need to make an action in one that isn't dominant?(don't know what its called) but you gotta click a few times before it actually clicks the button on the screen.

Wow this is long and boring.

Also, toss in a bit of variance and you may have the same result. Looks like you are still up 130k though, not much to complain about...

Re: party vs stars difference
 

Do you have the single click table action box checked?

Re: party vs stars difference
 

I run like [censored] on stars.. then again I hate their software- so it could just be that im tilting..

Re: party vs stars difference
 

stars has the better players. stars is really difficult to win at compared to european sites

Re: party vs stars difference
 

[ QUOTE ]

Prove me wrong, then we can talk. Otherwise your bluff has been called.

[/ QUOTE ]

haahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha

ha ha








ha

Re: party vs stars difference
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Testing theories is for suckers.

Clearly the problem is far too subtle to be able to test, but obvious enough for players in the know (taps nose) to notice it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. It's sublte, obvious to alert players, and it's devastating.

The following covers the period 9/21/07 through yesterday. All hands played LHE short.
[image]http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9...rsshortlg9.jpg[/image]

[/ QUOTE ]
you ever stop and think that maybe you're just not very good at poker?

Re: party vs stars difference
 

you may have developed some bad habits in your rise to power on party, maybe due to running well at the time (getting away with calls/etc you shouldn't have made but worked out favorably).. then caught up with you when you moved to Stars (didn't help that the competition was stiffer).. and now you're stabilizing because you're finally making corrections to your leaks (bad habits that you had developed).

i say this because i develop bad habits all the time, they creep up on me over the course of a month or two. i'm not exactly sure why they happen.. possible the effects of running good/bad, or not always adjusting quickly enough to an ever changing game dynamic.

Re: party vs stars difference
 

zerosum,

u keep suggesting that pzhon is not in a "calm, logical frame of mind"

All he is asking for is for you to put some money behind your claim which you have yet to do.
if you take 100k hands i'm sure that is a high enough sample size and i'm sure it would be easy to collect these hands and do the analysis (if you have some statistics expertise of course).

Re: party vs stars difference
 

aren't all the sites rigged?

Re: party vs stars difference
 

OP,

Stars is way harder to win at than Party. I don't have anywhere near your sample on Stars, but Party still has tons of laughably bad players even at $100+ SNGs.

Re: party vs stars difference
 

Finally the "omg pokerstars is rigged" claim is put to the test... Mathematical rigour FTW!!

Go pzhon!

Re: party vs stars difference
 

I certainly don't have any definitive proof that pstars is rigged, but I did have a very suspicious thing happen once.

I was in one of the $200 buyin deep stack tourneys a while back where there was a $1000 bounty on a few pros. CrazyCanuck was one of the bounty pros and I happened to be sitting to his left right at the start of the tourney.

About 5 minutes into the event I was dealt KK and raised his bet pre-flop, which he called. I can't remember the exact flow of play but the flop was K-2-10 rainbow or something but he called my raise with what turned out to be A5. The turn was a 3, I went all in (maybe after a raise or two) and he called, needing a 4 to stay alive.

Of course the river was a 4 and I busted.

I guess you could put it down to him thinking I was bluffing, or maybe he put me on a small pair or something, but at the time I was thinking there was no way he could call with a gutshot draw, especially with a bounty on his head.

I've always wondered if there was some kind of shady deal, like, "Don't worry, we'll make sure you don't lose any showdowns in the first 2 hours."

Re: party vs stars difference
 

I always had trouble when first started playing on a new site, new players and sometimes new blind structures.

I played 1000+ sngs at pacific and was a 20%+ ROI winner ($10 buyin), then I tried party, lost right away even though that's where I started use PT and HUD. but after 100 games or so, I adjusted and started winning, after around 2000 sngs on party, I was back to 20%+ ROI. Also, this same process repeated when I moved from party to FTP, then FTP to stars. Sometimes I even dropped down to lower limits and still lost. Maybe OP just didn't adjust too well?

Re: party vs stars difference
 

I know you are trolling, but otherwise I was just going to suggest instaban for poker is rigged theories in the poker theory forum. And then I've seen that the whole topic got moved to BBV. Well. yeah, everything is rigged enjoy.