I propose a new poker rule
 

First the scenario that needs to be addressed; then my proposed remedy:

SCENARIO:

Seat 4 bets. Seat 6 calls. Dealer stops the action, because Seat 6 has acted out of turn. Dealer pushes Seat 6's chips back to him, and indicates that the action is on Seat 5.

Seat 6 is confused, because Seat 5 doesn't have any cards. Seat 6 expresses his confusion to the dealer.

The dealer assures Seat 6, "Yes, he has cards. You can't see them, because he's holding them in his left hand. The players to his right can see them. I, sitting directly across the table, can see them. I would imagine that almost everyone at the table can see them--except for you."

This scenario plays out at least once per down, every night of my life.

MY PROPOSED SOLUTION:

It should be illegal to hold your cards in your left hand in a matter that causes the player to your left to act out of turn. I suggest that if a player is caught holding his cards in this manner when his left-side neighbor acts out of turn, a penalty should be enforced.

Suggested penalties:

--Offending player is fined the amount of one Big Blind. This money goes to charity.

--Offending player must pay each player at the table an amount equal to one Small Blind.

No matter what penalty we decide upon, it is mandatory that the amount of the fine be doubled if the player gives the dealer a dirty look when she explains to him that it's HIS OWN FAULT the other guy acted out of turn.

I hate those dirty looks.

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

Does everyone in your life hate you?

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

Only my readers in the B&M forum.

On other pages, and in real life, I come across as a very likable person.

Here, I rant about [censored] that annoys me.

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

I've always thought that a KITN is the standard remedy for these sorts of problems. Has anything changed?

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've always thought that a KITN is the standard remedy for these sorts of problems. Has anything changed?

[/ QUOTE ]

My first thoughts exactly, but I'm not sure most of'em have any balls so the fine probably causes more pain. How many nerve endings are still viable in a vestigial organ?

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

This idea is terrible.

LISTEN GUYS:
THE MORE BAROQUE THE RULES, OR DRACONIAN THE PENALTIES, THE LESS ATTRACTIVE POKER BECOMES FOR NEWER PLAYERS. THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE. I WANT GOOD GAMES TO PLAY IN, OK???

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
This idea is terrible.

LISTEN GUYS:
THE MORE BAROQUE THE RULES, OR DRACONIAN THE PENALTIES, THE LESS ATTRACTIVE POKER BECOMES FOR NEWER PLAYERS. THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE. I WANT GOOD GAMES TO PLAY IN, OK???

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, chill out, the rule requiring you to keep your cards in plain sight already exists. Angleshooters and (insert explictitive of choice) that hide their cards are much worse for the game than a clearly stated and uniformly enforced rule. Yes, our suggested punishments may be a little extreme.

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

Snowball is right. Nits acting like this kills my action.
For every angleshooter, there are at the very least 100 simpletons just being simple.

I like simpletons in my game, and fining them for being stupid is the best way to send them packing back to the BJ table or the slots.

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
For every angleshooter, there are at the very least 100 simpletons just being simple.

I like simpletons in my game, and fining them for being stupid is the best way to send them packing back to the BJ table or the slots.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

One big blind to charity FTW. Who gets to pick the charity? Is it still tax deductible?

-Tom

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

If I am seat 6, I end up asking seat 5 over and over again if he has cards (basically every time I have an action on me). He usually will get the hint and start keeping his cards in a more visible position.

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

It's already a rule. From Robert's Rules of Poker:

18. Players must keep their cards in full view. This means above table-level and not past the edge of the table. The cards should not be covered by the hands in a manner to completely conceal them.

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

I generally try to teach them how to hold their cards. I don't think I have ever thrown anyone out for holding their cards wrong, but there is always tomorrow.

With the dealer on top of it the action doesn't go far, but if the action continues past him his hand is dead for not protecting his action.

edit to add: I can see this becoming more of a problem as the TDA has moved away from how this has been handled in the past and makes seat 6 leave their action unchanged if seat 5 calls.

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

I always hold my cards with my left hand as I feel that is the only true "safe" spot I can have them. The reason for this is I have had dealers muck my cards before when I had a chip on top of them and the floor ruled that I didn't properly protect my cards. When I have cards though I always have my hand in the same spot every time, and when I am not in a hand I have my hands behind my chips so there is no confusion (atleast none yet)

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

ytf - how about chopping off one finger fron their left-hand until they get it right. If they continue doing it they are going to end up having a tough time covering up their cards anyway.

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
I generally try to teach them how to hold their cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do I. And I catch grief for it. Every time. As if I were the one who was screwing up the game.

BTW, when I worked in the sportsbook, I proposed the "fine to charity" penalty for anyone who spoke the word "Unbelievable!" out loud. I had to hear that word thirty times a day.

"Dude, check it out! The Devil Rays scored three in the 9th to beat the Yankees!"




"Unbelievable!"

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

I like: first infraction a warning, each additional - their hand is dead.

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

How about a rule - 'If you are an idiot, or causing other people to act like idiots, You must leave you seat, and your stack, and go home.'

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
How about a rule - 'If you are an idiot, or causing other people to act like idiots, You must leave you seat, and your stack, and go home.'

[/ QUOTE ]

I tell them to take their stack with them.

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
With the dealer on top of it the action doesn't go far, but if the action continues past him his hand is dead for not protecting his action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Last night I had this ruling made at a table I was dealing, it was the first time I actually ever saw a floor rule this way.

I had actually burned and turned and the UTG player was betting as the player who i had missed finally spoke up. I expected the floor to treat this as an early burn and turn (even though two players had checked behind the player before I burned and turned) simply because our floors typically try to avoid killing hands. While the player was at fault, I also have to share the blame for losing track of the player.

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
One big blind to charity FTW. Who gets to pick the charity? Is it still tax deductible?

-Tom

[/ QUOTE ]

Where you at on long island?

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 4 bets. Seat 6 calls. Dealer stops the action, because Seat 6 has acted out of turn. Dealer pushes Seat 6's chips back to him, and indicates that the action is on Seat 5.

Seat 6 is confused, because Seat 5 doesn't have any cards. Seat 6 expresses his confusion to the dealer.

The dealer assures Seat 6, "Yes, he has cards. You can't see them, because he's holding them in his left hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The dealer assures Seat 6, "Yes, he has cards. You ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION, PLEASE FOLLOW THE ACTION. Did you see him muck his hand? NO, Then he has cards! SIMPLE

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

I tend to have the opposite problem. When I have cards, I always hold them in my left hand with my index finger kind of on the back so that a good portion of the cards are sticking out in plain site. BUT, whenever I do not have cards, because I tend to wear a baggy jacket or sweatshirt while playing, I'm often asked if I have cards. I find this annoying because when I do have cards they are always plainly visible.

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

if your hands are on the table it can very much look like you are holding cards.
I could let my cards always be in plain view every time I have them but I could very easily hold my hands in such a way that made it look to the whole table like I possibly had cards.

You likely are unintentionally holding your hands in such a way. If many players often ask you this question then I'm guessing you are the problem, not them.
They don't ask other players this question as much, right? Only you. So that should probably tell you something.

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

Hey we could have those lights like on some of the carnival games, whenever a player has cards they have a big [censored] red light

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey we could have those lights like on some of the carnival games, whenever a player has cards they have a big [censored] red light

[/ QUOTE ]

For a while we had a spinning red light in our poker room. It disappeared because nobody else seemed to like it. I liked putting it on a dead spread to see if I could attract players to it.

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey we could have those lights like on some of the carnival games, whenever a player has cards they have a big [censored] red light

[/ QUOTE ]

For a while we had a spinning red light in our poker room. It disappeared because nobody else seemed to like it. I liked putting it on a dead spread to see if I could attract players to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker players are not attracted to light - free food, now you have something! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey we could have those lights like on some of the carnival games, whenever a player has cards they have a big [censored] red light

[/ QUOTE ]

For a while we had a spinning red light in our poker room. It disappeared because nobody else seemed to like it. I liked putting it on a dead spread to see if I could attract players to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker players are not attracted to light - free food, now you have something! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Food is good but booze is better

i got a better idea
 

The poker community needs to teach players proper ettiquette. This needs to happen now, and must include more than just the dealer who's once again fixing problems caused by players who hide their cards. Everyone must get off their lazy butts and get with the friggin' program already. Dealers, floors, cashiers, brushes, tournament directors, and most of all, television.

C'mon now, you don't operate a radial arm saw without understanding where the friggin' sharp part is, where to put the work vs where to put your hands, or where the on/off switch is located. Neither should you play poker if you have no clue about the basics. The basics have nothing to do with strategy either. I have a 2-minute crash course I offer to anyone who appears to be a newbie. I tell them it's only what's not obvious from playing at home. Most are more than happy to listen. The course is basically this:

1. How to look at your cards properly (including don't completely cover them, everyone must be able to see them at all times)

2. Keep a chip on your cards so they don't get swiped

3. Don't let go of your cards until they push you the money

The first three rules are all the same: protect your hand. This is more important than what beats what.

4. How to bet or raise properly so you don't get called on a string bet.

5. Tipping is customary but not required. For most pots a buck is fine. If you tip more, you're a saint. If the dealer's being a jerk, don't tip them.

The rest of the rules are long and complicated and you don't need to know them all, you'll learn as you go.

I've been giving this schpeal for a long time and it produces nothing but good results. These instructions will keep many a new player from having a bad experience that makes their first time their last.

Everyone needs to teach proper ettiquette and behavior, but most everyone has dropped the ball on this one. Television has done live poker the biggest disservice of all. They pound it into your head that it's 220:1 to get dealt pocket aces, but never seem to cover anything that's actually important. I'm not going to digress too far on that except to say I friggin' hate tv poker, and have refused to watch it for years because it's speeding up the dumbing down of america.

Cardrooms also need to clearly post rules of ettiquette in giant letters where all can see them. I see rooms with 35 or more rules written real small on a plaque in the back, but even then, basic ettiquette is not discussed. There should be a highly visible plaque with about 5-7 basics of ettiquette in every room. It should be located so that no one can possibly miss it. Other information can be posted in the back.

I understand your frustration, but until something along the lines of my solutions are enacted everywhere, expect the chaos to continue. Educating players is the only cure.

Al

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

[ QUOTE ]


Food is good but booze is better

[/ QUOTE ]

Booze already free here in Vegas. Free food or better yet - free massage.

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

"Cardrooms also need to clearly post rules of ettiquette in giant letters where all can see them. "


YES.
I see dealers and other players complaining about the idiots who don't know a damn thing all the time.
Well, it's all some secret code that you're supposewd to learn as you go. So obviously with all the new players coming to the game there are going to be mistakes.
The fact that experienced players also don't even know what the hell they are doing a lot of the time and make up the most ridiculous stuff should really tell you something.

stop keeping everything such a secret. DIRECTLY TELL the players what the rules and etiquette are by spelling it out for them.

Throw in a part about how the rules are there to make the game friendly and understandable for everyone and include something about how angle-shooting isn't tolerated either.

etc etc etc.

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
include something about how angle-shooting isn't tolerated either.


[/ QUOTE ]

lol yes it is

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've always thought that a KITN is the standard remedy for these sorts of problems. Has anything changed?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a KITN is a good solution for this problem - the problem of OP posting a moronic idea.

OP: Tell seat 6 to keep his eyes on the action, and meanwhile you can ponder the effect that your suggested right-hand rule would have on seat 4 - and plan your next idiotic contribution (a "no hands" rule? or "don't look, don't tell"?)

Re: i got a better idea
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cardrooms also need to clearly post rules of ettiquette in giant letters where all can see them. I see rooms with 35 or more rules written real small on a plaque in the back, but even then, basic ettiquette is not discussed. There should be a highly visible plaque with about 5-7 basics of ettiquette in every room. It should be located so that no one can possibly miss it. Other information can be posted in the back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree, etiquette (or perhaps game protection) policies, guidelines and/or rules on one poster is simply too much clutter and tends to be be ignored. But a cardroom that narrows such a poster down to a half dozen or so prominently displayed core items needs to make sure they pick the most important ones. In other words post the five or six that:

- are frequently violated

- many customers may be unaware of

- really impact the game negatively when violated.

My observation is Los Angeles area clubs usually get it wrong (e.g., focusing on the relatively harmless rabbit hunting).

~ Rick

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tell seat 6 to keep his eyes on the action, and meanwhile you can ponder the effect that your suggested right-hand rule would have on seat 4

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think seat 4 has ever gone out of turn in the history of poker because he couldn't see seat 5 had cards.

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tell seat 6 to keep his eyes on the action, and meanwhile you can ponder the effect that your suggested right-hand rule would have on seat 4

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think seat 4 has ever gone out of turn in the history of poker because he couldn't see seat 5 had cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol...they would if they could

Re: I propose a new poker rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
include something about how angle-shooting isn't tolerated either.


[/ QUOTE ]

lol yes it is

[/ QUOTE ]



Yeah, but you can SAY that it isn't!!

Re: i got a better idea
 

[ QUOTE ]
My observation is Los Angeles area clubs usually get it wrong (e.g., focusing on the relatively harmless rabbit hunting).

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

I may be somewhat cynical, but I think that poker rooms don't like rabbit hunting because it slows their drop.