Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

live 25/50 game in NYC...this hand is playing as 25-50-100-200...villian in this hand is Nick Schulman...i generally think Nick is the best player in the game...he's been playing solid in a crazy game...i have 42k and villain covers...

after the two straddles i am UTG with KcJc and limp for 200...couple of callers behind me, small blind calls, and Nick calls from one of the straddles...5 to the flop

(~1100) flop Kd Qc 4c...

checked to me and i bet 1k...1 caller behind me...and then Nick check raises to 4k...who calls here and who reraises here? i choose to call and the other caller folds...

(~10,100) turn is As...Nick checks and i decide to check (people bet here?)

river Kh...nick leads for 9k...whats the play here?

is the hand different if Nick leads the turn, and then bets river from our perspective?

all comments welcome...obviously a lot has to do with my read on Nick but still would like to see how people would play the hand.

I didnt raise preflop because it owuld not have thinned the field any the way the game was playing...

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

i liked the way u played this, and on the river id fold. from a metagame standpoint its not a very smart spot for him to bluff since if he figures ur a solid player he has to think king x is a lot of ur range checking for pot control on the turn. Also he c/r a pot where it was bet and then called which makes it a lot less likely hes bluffing imo.

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

As played, I'd fold because of the reasons stated above. He should put you on a King a large % of the time.

If he views you as solid, I would raise over a turn bet. I like the check behind though.

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

id prob bet turn and shove any non-board pairing river.. river looks like a fold.

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

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id prob bet turn and shove any non-board pairing river..

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Yeah this is cool too if you like variance.

This is prolly the best play for shania. In a vacuum, I think a check back might be better.

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

i dunno if u have to drag shania into it, i just think its the best play for anyone that isnt underrolled. he will fold a ton and if the clubs get there he might even call lighter not believing u would pot turn with a flushdraw and not believing u would shove river with the broadway if the flush gets there.

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

i'm w luego

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

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As played, I'd fold because of the reasons stated above. He should put you on a King a large % of the time.

If he views you as solid, I would raise over a turn bet. I like the check behind though.

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agree on check behind turn, what are we putting him on the river, squarely 44 or TJ? Doesn't he bet the turn with TJ almost always? Can he be value betting worse hands here on the river?

tc

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

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Doesn't he bet the turn with TJ almost always? Can he be value betting worse hands here on the river?

tc

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Value betting worse seems unlikely. I can see us beating maybe something like smaller busted clubs, but it seems like a fairly bad spot to bluff. Also, I'm sure nick is capable of checking J10 here, b/c he may percieve a bet to blow hero off a lot of worse hands given the turn card (he also checks KQ/44 on turn sometimes im sure).

from what I understand of nick he seems tricky enough that I might want to call, so its close, but i like a fold best

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

[ QUOTE ]
live 25/50 game in NYC...this hand is playing as 25-50-100-200...villian in this hand is Nick Schulman...i generally think Nick is the best player in the game...he's been playing solid in a crazy game...i have 42k and villain covers...

after the two straddles i am UTG with KcJc and limp for 200...couple of callers behind me, small blind calls, and Nick calls from one of the straddles...5 to the flop

(~1100) flop Kd Qc 4c...

checked to me and i bet 1k...1 caller behind me...and then Nick check raises to 4k...who calls here and who reraises here? i choose to call and the other caller folds...

(~10,100) turn is As...Nick checks and i decide to check (people bet here?)

river Kh...nick leads for 9k...whats the play here?

is the hand different if Nick leads the turn, and then bets river from our perspective?

all comments welcome...obviously a lot has to do with my read on Nick but still would like to see how people would play the hand.

I didnt raise preflop because it owuld not have thinned the field any the way the game was playing...

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weird, nick made such a small cr on flop (that's the only part of the hand I really don't like). i prolly cawl b/c he cold have missed clubs a large % of the time and views the A as a bad card for you. furthermore, he thinks that you probably would have bet a hand >2p differently, meaning you would have either a) reraised his flop cr, b) bet the turn.

Thus, your hand looks pretty weak, making it a MT "i cawl."

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

i would call, i dont think he check raises with JTo on the flop. i think he has AcXc here over 50% of the time.

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

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As played, I'd fold because of the reasons stated above. He should put you on a King a large % of the time.

If he views you as solid, I would raise over a turn bet. I like the check behind though.

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agree on check behind turn, what are we putting him on the river, squarely 44 or TJ? Doesn't he bet the turn with TJ almost always? Can he be value betting worse hands here on the river?

tc

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I definitely don't know Nick's game that well, but I don't think it's that unlikely he was either going for a turn c/r with JT, or checking 44 because he expects to lose most worse hands if he bets the turn. (Or just to be tricky and have FPS)

I think KQo is the most likely hand for him, even if he raises it up preflop like 75% of the time. If he always raises KQ here preflop, it might be a call.

The main reason I fold is bc I don't see how Nick would view that river as a good bluffing opportunity.

Also, he might be able to have KT or K9, but I wouldn't expect him to raise flop with it. Again though, I don't know his game.

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

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i would call, i dont think he check raises with JTo on the flop. i think he has AcXc here over 50% of the time.

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what hands is he expecting to get value from on the river with his bet then?

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

he doesn't have to be betting for value, he knows its a tough board for OP to call, OP would need at minimum a K 10 to call

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

given your style of play, I sorta like a flop 3 bet because I think nick will 4-bet all in lighter than most here....

I think turn check is no brainer here, and I'd fold the river. He's rarely going to try to bluff you in this game.

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

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i dunno if u have to drag shania into it, i just think its the best play for anyone that isnt underrolled. he will fold a ton

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A lot of the hands that he folds are behind and drawing very slim vs our hand. There isn't much need to fold them out.

I also think there's a very decent chance he's going for a c/r with a hand like 44 or JT or a c/c with AcXc.

What better hands are we trying folding out? KQ, K4 and Q4. AT maybe?

Can't we fold most of those out with a river bet and not risk being blown off our big draw?

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and if the clubs get there he might even call lighter not believing u would pot turn with a flushdraw and not believing u would shove river with the broadway if the flush gets there.

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The only bluff we can have if we pot turn and shove a club river is TP turned into a bluff, right?

All that said, betting the turn is a good play and makes you very annoying to play against, but I think I like a check a little better.

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

Is this like KQ 70% of the time?

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

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given your style of play, I sorta like a flop 3 bet because I think nick will 4-bet all in lighter than most here....


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Yeah, I kinda want to also. I kept thinking 'I wish you raised this preflop so that we can get it in here'

We are ahead of a lot of draws that might possibly get it in. Getting all-in v Tc8c would be fun.

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

i think u played it fine, though i 3 bet the flop a pretty decent % of the time. i also fold river. hes smart guy i think i doubt he would fire with bricked clubs, and i highly doubt hes value betting worse. tough spot.

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

i call

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

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Is this like KQ 70% of the time?

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first thing i thought of

fwiw i think he should check the river with KQ tho, buw what do i know

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

I'd fold the river and I would have played the hand the same way you did. I also agree this is exactly KQ a lot.

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

why KQ only and not K4? K4 > KQ > 44 > JT i'd think if he's strong. would he really check JT on the turn? or 44? are you that aggressive?

agree vs. most players this is minumum a straight way more often than hand you beat. but first thing i thought was call. it's just such a good bluff situation for a fearless player against a strong opponent. i mean what does nick put you on that you'll call? i've never played him live though, and his checkraise on flop would have to be a draw or a monkey for me to be right, so i'd try to talk myself out of it. with "solid in a crazy game" guess it's a good laydown, especially if you're one of the crazy ones. but you don't make it sound like it's a game where people call crazy on the river.

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

Im having a hard time understanding why more people aren't advocating a 3 bet on this flop.

I'd be interested to hear some thoughts on that.

For those saying fold, you're folding 100% of the time?

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

im gonna respond in a lil more in detail in a while. but in schulmans shoes, a turn check with 44/KQ is super standard. and he WILL fold those to a turn pot+river shove (barring live tells).

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

hm, i so so soo like a pot+shove better than the standard line. but hey lets flip it around then, tell my why u DONT like it then.

i really dont think schulman will crai with 44 (which is what i put him on for the most part) here as that will be dumping money to the straight up noodles a huge part of the time. i think we have a pretty damn excellent opportunity to represent the nuts very believably and we have a huge draw to boot. u might say "well u dont make money in poker trying to make opponent fold sets" or whatever but thats a silly blanket statement. i dont think excellent players like nick will put his stack in here with mid two pair or bottom set if he doesnt have reason to believe OP is very tough and resourceful.

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

also, even tho i think this play is +ev by itself, we can not disregard shania right.

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

fold pf

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

I never play in live games like this, so just curious what happens if you make it 2k to go preflop. And I like how you played the hand and I'd call the river probably but the arguments for a fold make it very close for me.

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

im with luego 110% but hey i just love betting a lot of chips very often

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

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im with luego 110% but hey i just love betting a lot of chips very often

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LOL

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

I love a flop 3-bet. I really feel like theres all sorts of hands he check/raises that flop that he isnt happy putting his whole stack of 200 BB's in with.

Turn check is fine.

River I might be tempted to minraise, but calling is the safe move here. Folding is out of the question.

Re: Hand 1: 100/200 live vs TheTakeover
 

I'm in the bet turn/shove river camp, and honestly I'd rather it blanked than came a club if he c/c:ed turn.

Thoughts and Results
 

On the turn i ended up checking...i thought Nick might call me lighter than usual given the flop action and the flush draw on the board if i made a bet...i didnt think i had the fold equity required to make the bet (despite having plenty of outs if he called)...still not sure if that was right - definitely a lower variance play...

on the river i called relatively quickly, although thinking about it afterwards i couldnt really put him on a hand i beat other than an Ac busted flush draw...he showed 44 for flopped set...

Re: Thoughts and Results
 

Do people really peel the flop with JT without the flush draw?

If not I don't get the bet turn / bet river plan.

Re: Thoughts and Results
 

luego 1 world 0