Double Barrel Float
 

Villain is 18/10/2 thru 4K hands. Early in session, my image should be snug. I have two notes on him, "double barrel" and "calls 3bet with 22." He's pretty much what you would expect at those stats. He likely views me as reasonable. We don't have a ton of crazy history or anything, especially recently.

Poker Stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

BB: $201.85
UTG: $202
Hero (CO): $200
BTN: $321.75
SB: $240.45

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $8</font>, Hero calls $8, 3 folds

Flop: ($19) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $14</font>, Hero calls $14

Turn: ($47) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $37</font>, UTG calls $37

River: ($121) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

bad villain to float... bad turn to bet... he has two pair here a lot and isn't folding much.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

What a mess. I fold preflop and probably check the turn.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

[ QUOTE ]
bad villain to float... bad turn to bet... he has two pair here a lot and isn't folding much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you coach?

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

why are we betting the turn....

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

i think given the turn card, a double barrel is alright.
the float was probably a bad idea.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

Now shove river

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

[ QUOTE ]
why are we betting the turn....

[/ QUOTE ]

to make our river shove more credible.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is 18/10/2 thru 4K hands.

[/ QUOTE ]


You're dead and he's almost never folding.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why are we betting the turn....

[/ QUOTE ]

to make our river shove more credible.

[/ QUOTE ]


Imo that isn't a good enough reason to bet this turn.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

[ QUOTE ]
why are we betting the turn....

[/ QUOTE ]
if you're asking that question - you should be asking why we called the flop to begin with

I think once we call the flop, betting the turn is mandatory

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

If you're going to call that type of flop, and then bet the turn when the flush comes, you better continue on the river.

I would say ~80

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

i've never tried floating this type of opponent on this board + this turn, but arguments that betting this or that turn is "bad" are fairly dumb.

most of us can agree that raising preflop with small connectors and such is -ev as measured in sklansky bucks, but we counter that by having a balanced range and by applying aggression on future streets. the basic gist of that idea: errors on one street are recoverable on later streets. that the bet sizing grows substantially on later streets partly aids this.

here, we bet turn because it will often succeed (i imagine) and if not, we maintain the possibility of running a river bluff (which we need to assume will be at least partially +ev AND commit to doing it nonzero% if we decide the turn bluff is even slightly -ev).

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

this hand is fine. check river. imo.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

If you bet the turn you'd better be betting the river. What does 'double barrel' mean, is that saying you should do it to him or that he does it alot?

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you bet the turn you'd better be betting the river. What does 'double barrel' mean, is that saying you should do it to him or that he does it alot?

[/ QUOTE ]

that means it works alot on him, i.e. he peels the flop pretty light

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

i think if you are gonna pull a move; a flop raise, then betting scarecards or cards you hit on the turn is better than a float on this board.

by raising you force him to fold all non Ax hands pretty much, whilst setting it up so that you can get him to fold an A if a good card hits.

not saying i would try it here, but it is better than a float imo.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

I don't think you can float this board profitablly if you aren't going to rep a draw when it hits on the turn. The king is like THE perfect card. It completed the double gutter and the flush.

I mean, on the river, he either has to put you on a massive bluff or a made draw. He may spite call w/ a set, but I don't think he's calling a river shove w/ two pair. I think you fold a lot of his range, and this is a particularly great float bc a lot of times he calls the turn and folds the river, so you actually get a fair chunk of him and still get a fold.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why are we betting the turn....

[/ QUOTE ]

to make our river shove more credible.

[/ QUOTE ]


Imo that isn't a good enough reason to bet this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough, how about because the nitty guy, in checking the turn has defined his hand as one pair or less. If he has ‘less’ we bet simultaneously for protection and as a bluff against those one pairs that aren’t tp but are bigger than our pair.

If he c/c he further defines his hand as top pair-ish hands that are generally uncomfortable stacking off here to a turn bet/river shove combo.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you bet the turn you'd better be betting the river. What does 'double barrel' mean, is that saying you should do it to him or that he does it alot?

[/ QUOTE ]

that means it works alot on him, i.e. he peels the flop pretty light

[/ QUOTE ]In that case I think a 3 barrel is ok here, more likely that he's peeling with pair + draw.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

Hmmm most people dont seem to like the flop call. So i assume that they prefer a raise instead. Why is this? I cant figure out why a raise would be better.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

nice post terp

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

I bet $101, that should fold out his Ax hands, I'm not sure he folds two pair but he most likely doesn't fold sets (even though they're very similar here). I think the flop float is fine though I prefer just raising the flop.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

[ QUOTE ]
i've never tried floating this type of opponent on this board + this turn, but arguments that betting this or that turn is "bad" are fairly dumb.

most of us can agree that raising preflop with small connectors and such is -ev as measured in sklansky bucks, but we counter that by having a balanced range and by applying aggression on future streets. the basic gist of that idea: errors on one street are recoverable on later streets. that the bet sizing grows substantially on later streets partly aids this.

here, we bet turn because it will often succeed (i imagine) and if not, we maintain the possibility of running a river bluff (which we need to assume will be at least partially +ev AND commit to doing it nonzero% if we decide the turn bluff is even slightly -ev).

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you comment on why saying "betting this or that turn is bad"? Sure we have to commit to floating sometimes, but then sometimes the board comes out in such a manner that it's decidedly -EV to do so. It seems like here we're trying to fold out...like, KQ with no club, and QQ/JJ no club. A lot of his range is calling the turn I think, and that's a fine reason to say "ok, it was a good idea but now the board is a little too coordinated to make him try to fold."

Also, if the turn bluff is -ev, we don't have to bet the river because that could still be -ev. Unless you meant "if the play as a whole is going to be +ev but the turn bet is -ev, then we have to bet the river", in which case duh. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

On this river some of his turn peel range will def fold (anything with a high club that he peeled once but doesn't want to face a ton of heat with) but some of his turn peel range already has us owned and isn't going to fold at all (QJ, any two pair or set) so [censored] if I know what to do.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

Sorry to be blunt and brief, but this is not the board or the correct villain to try this against.

Turn card is one of the few that you could have picked up that might give a turn net/then river shove Fold equity, so once turn comes, if you shove the river, this isn't horrible, but floating a villain who likes to call is really bad on this board texture

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

good points in the thread but verse you i may very well fold top set here lol.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

[ QUOTE ]
good points in the thread but verse you i may very well fold top set here lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, i bet 80 he snapcalled AK

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol, i bet 80 [..]

[/ QUOTE ]


blood everywhere

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

i still stand by the logic that if you call that flop and bet the turn, you better bet the river

but you really should just be folding the flop.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

Turn bet is okay. 18/10 guys like to open broadways ime and so he has KQ/AQ-AJ a lot, and he's only beating a bluff on the river so I like a bet here as well

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

[ QUOTE ]
i still stand by the logic that if you call that flop and bet the turn, you better bet the river

but you really should just be folding the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, folding the flop seems a little silly to me. If we're going to fold this flop, we should prob. just fold pf, which is certainly ok. This villain and most are cbetting this board quite often. If he opens 8% of his range UTG and cbets 90% of it on this board, why would we fold?

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

bet just a tad more on the turn so you can shove the river should you choose to do so.

$80 is not getting it done.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i still stand by the logic that if you call that flop and bet the turn, you better bet the river

but you really should just be folding the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, folding the flop seems a little silly to me. If we're going to fold this flop, we should prob. just fold pf, which is certainly ok. This villain and most are cbetting this board quite often. If he opens 8% of his range UTG and cbets 90% of it on this board, why would we fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
uh - b/c the board has an Ace in it and he raises only 8% of his hands, AND he's UTG which puts him on premium hands only? I don't get it - why would you think about calling the flop? You only have mid pair on a board that probably hit villain.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i still stand by the logic that if you call that flop and bet the turn, you better bet the river

but you really should just be folding the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, folding the flop seems a little silly to me. If we're going to fold this flop, we should prob. just fold pf, which is certainly ok. This villain and most are cbetting this board quite often. If he opens 8% of his range UTG and cbets 90% of it on this board, why would we fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
uh - b/c the board has an Ace in it and he raises only 8% of his hands, AND he's UTG which puts him on premium hands only? I don't get it - why would you think about calling the flop? You only have mid pair on a board that probably hit villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obv an Ace hits a huge part of his range. Can't argue that whatsoever. I've played enough with him to know that he's opening 22+ always and suited connectors sometimes also.

Even if he was only opening the actual top 8% of hands, we've got like 20-25% equity against his cbetting range. Take our implied odds on the potential 5 outer and our ability to steal the pot later sometimes and calling the flop is easily +EV.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

[ QUOTE ]
Obv an Ace hits a huge part of his range. Can't argue that whatsoever. I've played enough with him to know that he's opening 22+ always and suited connectors sometimes also.

Even if he was only opening the actual top 8% of hands, we've got like 20-25% equity against his cbetting range. Take our implied odds on the potential 5 outer and our ability to steal the pot later sometimes and calling the flop is easily +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol - implied odds on a wimpy two pair? Do you really think he's going to stack off with something that loses to 9T? you basically have 2 outs to catch another T to really say you have implied odds - definitely not enough EV.

you might as well make this play with 27 b/c you're pretty much bluffing everytime

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

as ssnl regularly demonstrates, too many peopel go for c/c with two pair here... don't bluff plz

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obv an Ace hits a huge part of his range. Can't argue that whatsoever. I've played enough with him to know that he's opening 22+ always and suited connectors sometimes also.

Even if he was only opening the actual top 8% of hands, we've got like 20-25% equity against his cbetting range. Take our implied odds on the potential 5 outer and our ability to steal the pot later sometimes and calling the flop is easily +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol - implied odds on a wimpy two pair? Do you really think he's going to stack off with something that loses to 9T? you basically have 2 outs to catch another T to really say you have implied odds - definitely not enough EV.

you might as well make this play with 27 b/c you're pretty much bluffing everytime

[/ QUOTE ]

Floating in spots where your avg. equity is higher makes a significant difference in the overall EV of the float, but whatever. You obv. hate the hand, that's fine. It's undoubtedly thin and I don't expect everyone to look at and say std, nh.

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

[ QUOTE ]
Floating in spots where your avg. equity is higher makes a significant difference in the overall EV of the float

[/ QUOTE ]
agreed, but this is not one of those spots

Re: Double Barrel Float
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Floating in spots where your avg. equity is higher makes a significant difference in the overall EV of the float

[/ QUOTE ]
agreed, but this is not one of those spots

[/ QUOTE ]

YOU WIN, congrats