600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

Here are two hands I played yesterday, where I felt I needed to lay a set down. We all hate the idea of laying down a set when you're playing 100x...but what do you think of these? Both of the villains in these hands are very good regs.

Poker Stars, $3/$6 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

UTG: $1,172.55
UTG+1: $600
MP1: $210
MP2: $1,029.25
CO: $706.40
Hero (BTN): $576
SB: $615.45
BB: $600

Pre-Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
3 folds, MP2 calls $6, CO folds, Hero calls $6, SB calls $3, BB checks

Flop: ($24) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 Players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="red">MP2 bets $18</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $50</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">BB raises to $150</font>


Poker Stars, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

BB: $441.20
UTG: $74
UTG+1: $351.70
Hero (MP1): $423.45
MP2: $694.05
CO: $471.55
BTN: $400
SB: $77

Pre-Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (MP1)
2 folds, Hero calls $4, MP2 folds, CO calls $4, <font color="red">BTN raises to $20</font>, SB folds, BB calls $16, Hero calls $16, CO calls $16

Flop: ($82) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 Players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($82) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $65</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">BB raises to $160</font>

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

I don't think you can fold hand 1, for the possibility of the flush draw. Villain could have 5h6h or other hands or any 2pair hands (he was in the BB).

The Second hand is difficult because you didn't bet the flop. Giving that turn card can definitely reduce the value of your set given the possible gutshot draw or 444. I hate laying down sets ever. But imo, it would be much easier to lay down hand #2 than hand #1.

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

some stats on villans? my 22/33 are losers for me, hwo about you? whenever I hit a set I think I cant/shouldnt lay them down especially in limped pots when you are playing for stacks there is a good chance someone has you beat so I think this might be a leak, but srsly who can lay a set down on either of these boards?!!!

I am starting to think playing them especially from EP is a leak and they should only be played vs specific opponents!

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

Im not folding hand one with str8 and flush draws out there. If you do, there is just no point ever limping your little pairs &lt; 66, as you aren't prepared to felt if someone gets aggressive against you and you hold bottom set.

The 2nd one I could probably find a fold depending on the villain. I really hate hthese unraised set hands, although I do sometimes limp them myself.

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

i can certainly find a fold in Hand 1 given his line. i dont see that CR over a bet/raise being anything less than 56hh (and i dont see it being that often cuz its not like hes waiting for the preflop aggressor to CB). i can lay this one down and not feel bad about it

Hand 2...rly have to donk the flop. PF aggressor isnt CBing lite into 3 other ppl, and u cant account on his CB too often (also good, cuz when BTN does have a hand, he has to raise his big hands, which allows us to work our stacks in). id much rather donk here. as played...i have no idea what to do on the turn (because flop line, ldo). i probably call cuz ima station, and call river bets on most cards

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

I stacked on both and lots to oversets and mumbled to myself how I suck.

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

[ QUOTE ]
i can certainly find a fold in Hand 1 given his line. i dont see that CR over a bet/raise being anything less than 56hh (and i dont see it being that often cuz its not like hes waiting for the preflop aggressor to CB). i can lay this one down and not feel bad about it

Hand 2...rly have to donk the flop. PF aggressor isnt CBing lite into 3 other ppl, and u cant account on his CB too often (also good, cuz when BTN does have a hand, he has to raise his big hands, which allows us to work our stacks in). id much rather donk here. as played...i have no idea what to do on the turn (because flop line, ldo). i probably call cuz ima station, and call river bets on most cards

[/ QUOTE ]

wth you talking about!!!! try not giving too much advice around here, we stack off way more on hand 1 than hand 2

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

wrong. anyone that can read a line for anything understands what i just said.

(unless ur strictly goin by the "dont go broke in a limped pot" rule)

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

i'd go broke on both

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

Hand 1 is a bad candidate to lay down a set, IMO. Since it's a limped pot TT is much less likely, and BB could just as easily have 6h5h, T4,43,Ah5h,Ah2h,5h2h,etc. Too many combo draws and other 2-pair draws out there to consider folding a set, especially since TT has to be somewhat discounted.

Hand 2 is closer, but I think if you're behind you at least have outs -- you can go either way, but I go with calling because people show up with unexpected stuff all the time.

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'd go broke on both

[/ QUOTE ]

agree...you can make an argument for hand 2, but I think you need to stack off in hand 1 100% of the time.

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'd go broke on both

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agree...you can make an argument for hand 2, but I think you need to stack off in hand 1 100% of the time.

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There's been a lot said and I don't have much to add. Agree with this statement.

Hand 1 I go broke faster as I shove over on the flop, hand two it takes longer as I fistpump and call the turn, then decide MHIG on the river and call his bet. I have a problem being too passive on the turn though.

And since no one else said it, I hate preflop in both hands.

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

a good argument can be made for folding the first one, but the way the second one was played, stack off all day.

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

[ QUOTE ]
a good argument can be made for folding the first one, but the way the second one was played, stack off all day.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say the exact opposite. Assuming a good regular is raising TT 100% of the time preflop, you're only losing to one hand in Hand 1, and there are straight and flush draws on the board.

That said, I think I go broke in both hands, unless villain in Hand 2 is an ubernit.

Oh yeah, and definitely raise Hand 1 preflop.

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

As others have said, go broke on 1 (assuming the mp2 guy folds after the bb check-3bets the flop). BB's hand range is too large to fold your set.

Second hand is much closer.

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

No offense qtip cause i think you are a good player. But maybe you shouldnt play 600nl for a If you even had to start this thread. You may find that you are donating to rediculously good players and the few fish arent worth the trouble.

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

None taken. There are more lots of fish at 3/6. My winrate has dropped severely there after a pretty nasty downswing. However, I still have 21k hands there at 1.43ptbb/100. This biggest thing tho, is that I know I'm good there.

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

To expand on that, in the afternoon many times the 3/6 games are better than the 1/2 games. About 10 minutes ago, I got all in with a guy PF who had Q8o. I had AKs, he caught a Q and won...but the point is the same. You get about none of that at 1/2 in the afternoon....just a bunch of us playing 24 tables is all.

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

The real talent makes you think that you are better than them for as long as possible. (no blunty im not talking about you =). Seriously im not doubting you can beat the game just saying 24 tables of 1/2 might make mo money is all.

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

Hand 1 - Villain might have a lot of big draws with which he might be willing to push on this flop, not just 44 or TT. and TT might have raised preflop a good amount of the time. So, I think I'd push in hand 1 and pay off TT or 44 if he happens to have it.

Hand 2- If you don't want to play bottom set OOP for your stack, then fold 22-55 in EP preflop. It would have been fine to just fold preflop instead of limp. Once you limp/call and flop a set, I would have led at the flop for 3/4 pot and taken it from there. As played to the turn, however, I might have found a fold if I had a read on BB as being tight post flop. After all, I can't see what he'd cold call with preflop, then check with on the flop and turn, only to wake up with a big c/r on the tuurn that doesn't beat bottom set. 2-pair seems unlikely. With 1-card to go, a big combo-draw seems unlikely for BB to play for c/r. So, it looks a lot like a higher set (like 44, which would have folded if you'd led at the flop), or even a hand like 57s for a straight.

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

I have a question for the group, when I am running tight on a table, I like to raise pocket 33 from EP, and cbet it if I can. If I hit my set, I play it like a cbet but of course I am coming over the top of any raise. Is this a leak?

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

I would say that if it is a non-threatening board and you are coming over the top of a raise with your tight image, then it is a leak. On more coordinated boards, coming over the top is o.k.

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

[ QUOTE ]
And since no one else said it, I hate preflop in both hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you have two players that are 33/25 behind you and love to reraise in positiona and apply preasure postflop, what would you like to do with your small pps PF then?

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And since no one else said it, I hate preflop in both hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you have two players that are 33/25 behind you and love to reraise in positiona and apply preasure postflop, what would you like to do with your small pps PF then?

[/ QUOTE ]

The first hand... raise. My mind reels at the horrible horrible hands I would pop here. You, on the other hand, have a pocket pair and position on the world. Raise it up, get some money in the pot, cut down the competition, take the betting lead. This seems like poker 101.

The second hand... is at least a little debatable. I raise it also. I wouldn't mind a fold at all though. But a limp I would only like if you do this with a wide range. IIRC you play a TAG game, and this preflop line would work better with a LAG game, where your range could include all manner of hands, including monsters and SCs and whatnot.

I know the small pairs in EP is a little philosophical debate around here. I'm definitely not going to claim that I'm "right" on small pairs in EP or MP. But imo open limping 33 doesn't set you up for many +EV situations as a TAG (out of position, little fold equity, well defined range, etc.).

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

ok then. The first hand you open raise to $18, and the co as he does more than often makes it $55, fold to you, now what?

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok then. The first hand you open raise to $18, and the co as he does more than often makes it $55, fold to you, now what?

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He is not going to 3 bet nearly as much as he is going to raise your limp.

Limping with to call a raise and set mine vs these types of players is bad.

You are better off raising or folding.

Edit: talking about hand 2 ldo.

Hand 1 call is ok (although I would raise).

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok then. The first hand you open raise to $18, and the co as he does more than often makes it $55, fold to you, now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 1 is already opened and CO has folded. I assume you're talking about hand 2. I don't care what you do as long as its not 4-bet. Getting only 10:1 IO against a good tricky reg I just fold.

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

right..hand 2. The thing is, it's pretty rare to see a cold call in these games, you're getting 3 bet a lot. I've thought about what to do, because it can make you either very tight or make you ride a roller coaster. In these spots, I've decided to limp and call a raise. I'm not just set mining as I do plenty of donking or c/ring without my set to balance it out. Also, I do some limp rring with big hands to balance as well. I really can't thinking of anything else to do. Raising and then folding all of our equity seems like an absolute scam. You get someone like Kelisitaan to your left, and things get hairy like this.

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

Things to keep in mind: (1) you're a better player than me and (2) I play in lower stakes where there's less 3-betting. That said I think I see where our differences are. You're doing your range balancing post flop mixing in c/c and c/r with or without the set. I don't think I'm good enough at hand reading to tangle post flop like that, so I want to balance it preflop.

It works for me. I'll keep it in mind though as the games get worse and the good players trickle down to my limits. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

Kurt:

I'm not saying I have THE answer to this puzzle here, cuz I'm just trying to figure out how to handle the aggression you find at 5/10. I see a lot of raise/folding, and it just doesn't seem possible to me to think that is the best way to go. I think it would be an interesting thing to start looking at people winrates with small pps with different strategies. Also, I'm pretty nitty lately, so my image works well when I show aggression.

Re: 600: I Know We All Hate It But..
 

I think you are over thinking this.

The question isn't whether bottom set is good, it's will your opponents will stack off with an overpair or less.