25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

Villain is a tough, tricky, aggressive player. He certainly isn't afraid to make big bluffs, although in this HU session he has been less aggressive and hasn't splashed around in as many pots as usual.

We have a lot of history together HU. Specifically, he loves checking big hands to me on the river. I have paid him off a couple times when he has made big c/r on the river, but I have never caught him bluffing when he takes that river line.

I'm not really interested in any street but the river, but feel free to comment on other streets.

Effective stacks are $16500

I raise to 150 PF w/ T4hh, he flats. (300)

Flop is 9h 6c 5h

He checks, I lead for 250, he makes it 750, I make it 2050, he calls. (4400)

Turn 6h, putting the 3 flush out. It goes check check.

River is the Ac. He checks quickly, I think for about 20 seconds and then bet 3400. He thinks for about 40 seconds until his time bank starts to run and then makes it 12400, leaving himself about 1700.

Call or fold?

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

seems like a fairly standard fold

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

nasty spot. aren't we going to see a flopped straight here a lot of the time? i think with you 3-betting the flop and checking the turn i don't think he can put you on a flush and i would think he would lead the river with a hand better than ours with the river being an A because we would be very likely to call a "bluff" and probably check down anything worse.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

I'm checking back this river. Given his propensity to check-raise you, essentially w/ the nuts, AND the fact that you've not caught him bluffing EVER in this spot. I don't think I need to find any value on 5th street, as my flush wants a showdown.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

checking riv here would be awful in a standard hsnl hu supermatch.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

I would rather b/f turn than b/f river here. It's not like your hand can improve at all on river, and from your OP you dont make a mention of villain heavily donkbetting rivers after you show weakness. If you are planning on getting only 1 more street of value against a heavy river CR-er, might as well get value on turn. Would you check turn with nutflush against villain?

From your read on villain, I guess it depends on villain's ability to turn weaker-made hands (like 2 pair) into bluffs this deep.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm checking back this river. Given his propensity to check-raise you, essentially w/ the nuts, AND the fact that you've not caught him bluffing EVER in this spot. I don't think I need to find any value on 5th street, as my flush wants a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a losing 25/50 player but arent we losing ALOT of value doing this? It is not like this guy is moving in every time we bet in this spot..

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would rather b/f turn than b/f river here.

[/ QUOTE ]


wowowowowow.

sorry but who are you? this is just absurd.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

i don't get it... you say you guys have a lot of history and you've never caught him check-raising the river as a bluff, yet you don't know what to do with a ten high flush on a paired board?

given the information you provided i'd fold without much regret, but if this is ever a call, i don't see how anyone else would be able to tell you so rather than you knowing yourself since you're the one with all the history/experience playing villain

edit: and i would bet this river 110% of the time

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

after reading the replies, i have deemed that hsnl has gone the way of sttf 2 years ago. its sad, i loved both forums, now they are both complete [censored].

also, i would fold river.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm checking back this river. Given his propensity to check-raise you, essentially w/ the nuts, AND the fact that you've not caught him bluffing EVER in this spot. I don't think I need to find any value on 5th street, as my flush wants a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he NEVER bluff raises on the river isn't this pretty much an easy bet/fold? You want value from your flush and you know you will not get bluff raised off your hand. The likelier he is to bluff you off your hand, the more I might consider checking. Then again, if he really likes to bluff raise the river than it turns in to a bet/call.

So basically:

Never bluff raise -> bet/fold
Some times bluff raises -> perhaps check behind, but probably bet/fold still
Often times bluff raises -> perhaps check behind, but probably bet/call
Really likes to bluff raise -> bet/call.

Am I way off here?

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would rather b/f turn than b/f river here.

[/ QUOTE ]


wowowowowow.

sorry but who are you? this is just absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]
Personal attack aside, you assert that it is criminal to check back the river after checking turn (and I obv. agree). You also say it is crazy to b/f turn (with 10hi flush on board of 9h5h6x6h). Are you checking your entire range? Entire range that is less than full house? I am certainly betting a full house for value. I am betting the turn being this deep with less than a full house, otherwise your range (after checking) is too easily narrowed to weak made hands that will bet river. If you're too scared to b/f the river, b/f turn is better than c/c, c/c imo.

If you check your entire range on turn, fine, even if I don't agree.


You want a generic answer, ok: check back turn for pot control with weak made hand, value bet river, fold to raise. It's obvious, and this wouldn't even make this hand postworthy because it is so standard.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

i would call, you think he would really check a hand twice that beats you on the turn and river, especially after you checked behind on the turn

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

One of you suggested checking back the river which makes no sense in a HU game. I dont think he can make the c/r here with trips, so your prob up agaisnt a boat, smaller/higher flush, or a bluff.

Based on your provided info we can rule out the bluff, so you can make a superstar fold or pay him off. Also, I think every street you played well, although betting the turn for 3/4 - full pot isnt horrible i think.

Results?

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
after reading the replies, i have deemed that hsnl has gone the way of sttf 2 years ago. its sad, i loved both forums, now they are both complete [censored].

also, i would fold river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to agree with you Raptor, I can say that I don't really post that often because when I joined the forum the only really great posts were in the sticky threads. Until recently I felt that 2+2 lacked on good thinking content and wasn't worth posting on.

There seemed to be a real Golden Age on 2+2 when the best online players seemed to beposting ridiculously good content hands involving deep discussion that people couldn't hlep but have an opinion on. I really felt that after the American legislation somehting died on this site and posts just lacked certain quality.

This was true until I saw the Jman 60kNL vs PA on Roland de Wolfe's account. This hand makes me feel that if good posts/posters like that continue to put down the most mentally demanding hand from a session that appears to have a multitude of answers then maybe we have a shot at having a great forum like it was 2 yrs ago!

Apologies for the mini-rant. This hand is a obv fold imo, especially given reads.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

I would fold the river

and i know you said you didn't wanna hear it, but i don't like the flop that much. i like 2450 better than 2050 and i like calling better than both of them

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

This was true until I saw the Jman 60kNL vs PA on Roland de Wolfe's account.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you hve link to this discussion? i serched for it but returned nothing, & id like to see it.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

meh i call river if this is vs who i think it is.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

Isnt the fact that he has been less bluffy/splashy in this match make a bluff more of his range just because he thinks you would give him credit. But then if he knows that you know this the reverse could also be true.

But wtf at bet folding the turn and checking river behind. Results orientated much? Also if you check behind here you understand you loose all ability to value bet, which in tough aggro match = u loose.

Also Im with Jfish.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

Just to clear a couple of things up without trying to bias the opinions. This guy is a very good player who is able to mix up his play very well. Just because I haven't caught him bluffing when taking this specific line certainly does not mean he isn't capable of bluffing here. And FWIW, he has bluffed in pots this big before.

To the guy who said he doesn't think Villian would check a hand that beats us twice, this is way, way, off. If villain has a full house here, I expect him to take this exact line a decent % of the time.

Also, raptor I agree some of these posts suck, but some are from good posters, so I just ignore the people who are way over their heads.

I'll give results after some more discussion.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

i call

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

with your image... i kinda like a call here, but like everyone else said you can be behind here a certain % of the time (by various hands obv) but i also think you can be ahead to... given how you play. i think villian is prob capable of turning hands into a bluff.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

Call. This is the bluff he's setting you up for.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

I know you said don't comment on other streets, but your flop/turn play really sets you up for this tough spot. I think 3betting the flop here and not continue-betting the turn is terrible. Your flop 3bet, turn check, and river bet when the A hits makes it look like you could just be value betting a big A here. Although your previous history with villain river c/raises would dictate a pretty much insta-fold, I would realllly have to think about it here, as he could be doing it 78 etc or even a 6 for value given how much your hand looks like it could be a rivered A. All that being said though, I still probably fold the river.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

this seems like a sort of insane spot for him to try a river crai bluff b/c your line looks pretty strong. i cant see calling with the way this hand went down, so i suppose i fold in a vacume but i'd be inclined to reconsider that if i knew the history between you two better, but wow, this would be a sick spot for a river crai bluff.

also, i like the flop re-raise but feel like you missed a bet on the turn, i.e., i'd like to bet the turn and then would most likely check behind on the river, but as played i think not betting this river would be a huge huge leak, and those posters who say otherwise are being results oriented after seeing the river crai and not considering all the times we get paid off by worse, which, is fairly often with a board like this.



-tex


edit: i'd like to see the HH's for the previous times he's crai the river and what his hands were strength wise, i'm still in the fold camp, but i'd like to see if he would ever crai this river w/ 8-high flush etc.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

[ QUOTE ]

To the guy who said he doesn't think Villian would check a hand that beats us twice, this is way, way, off. If villain has a full house here, I expect him to take this exact line a decent % of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the really tricky part here is to decide how wide his C/R value range is.
I'm 100% with you that villain would check a full house 2 times to try to C/R you, witch he also would have done if he was setting you up for a big bluff on the river or if he had a hand with SD value if you checked the river but not if you bet. Seems somewhat std...
But how would he play a flush (or a st8)?
On this board given these stack sizes I would probably value bet the flush (and the st8)on the river, but C/R a boat (and maybe the nut flush), if I was Villain. Witch leads us to the old nuts or nothing argument. But if he is capable of doing this with a higher flush (maybe trips/st8, but it's seems like spew, but how knows) it get's much more tricky.

I would probably fold this anyway, I think when he tanks before making the river C/R, it tells us that he has a really big hand, but not the nuts. Most people will not make big bluffs when they tanked this long, because they fell that it looks suspicious (but this can obviously be wrong).
If you had the nut flush it would have been harder to b/f this if he's capable of C/R a wide range, but with a T-high I probably fold.

Given your history with this guy I hope you had a plan what to do if he C/R you after you bet. Seems pretty dumb to bet otherwise [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

Unless you're very good and he knows that, he probably never expects you to call this c/r. Not saying that you should definitely call it, just because of that, but just wanted to point out that most people will rarely call a c/r on the river after they have checked the turn back (which fairly well screams pot control).

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

Well let's try to solve this with logic:
-You perceive him as a good player
-he might be bluffing here, definately not impressed by big number and/or deepish stacksizes
-he is solid -> wouldn't turn most hands with showdownvalue into bluffs for no apparent reasons and doesn't start weird plays on various streets.

Would he 3bet pf with hands such as 55-99 ? IP 100% this deep I guess but he is OOP here, so would he just call 55 or 66 ?
If he is solid deepish I would expect him to 3bet 99-55 and even hands such as 65s (96s).
After the given flop action and the huge river c/r I think it's fair to assume that his range is strongly polarised towards boat/bluff.
A flush doesn't make much sense with the given action, why would he overplay it that strongly, no hands that he has beat will call here all too often but most boats cannot fold in that spot..
I think it's fair to conclude he doesn't have a flush here all that often, neither a bare 6.
A straight with 78 is very unrealistically as well, it's quite bad to call the flop this deepish OOP if he could just jam and get it in with good equity and lots of dead monies.
Guess the key to this hand is how balanced his PF play is and if you ever saw him mixing it up pf this deepish.
If he is somewhat solid and straightforward pf then the chance of him showing up with AA is zero, 99, 66 and even 55 aren't really within that range. The way the hand played out there is a good chance this could be 56s but he only called pf while most normal regs would raise there.
Imho 96s seems to be the most likely holding which leaves us with a wide wide range of bluffs and only 1 real boat that he should have here.
He could be worried that his Twopair isn't good anymore on the flop and if he 4bets you, he would fold out worse hands and only get action by better ones (except for combodraws). So he calls the flop with the intention to see what the turn brings, then tries to c/r the turn, fails and with the given board gives it another try on the river.
My feeling is that he either has a boat with 2pair (wish is doubtful) or nothing /something realising he is beat, turning into a bluff.
The better he is and the more you would give him credit in that spot and fold flushs out, the more you should consider calling a certain amount of the time.
I really hate this spot because I can only estimate how he plays PF with these hands.
If you know his ranges and it doesn't make much sense I would call, otherwise just let it go and wait for a better spot /w more reads.
I like this hand cuz the board only leaves very few combinations and none of them really makes much sense imho. Definately need a good read here...

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

interesting hand, been too lazy to post in forums but give my 2 cents.

from the villain's perspective your line on the flop screams a huge hand or a huge draw.

your line on the turn suggest you've either made your hand but want to control the pot size this deep or that was the worst card for your made hand.

his thoughts on the river is, well if he has either a or b (straight or flush) he will call if I bet since his hand is too strong to fold but not strong enough to raise this deep, but he will also bet 110% of the time for value since his hand is too strong to check behind with for all the times he will get value from lesser hands.

so 100% this is a fold even if he was bluffing give props to the villain for makin such a sick bluff and find someone else to play unless you like flipping coins


edit: seems like 56 95% of the time, and a bluff 5% of the time.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well let's try to solve this with logic:
-You perceive him as a good player
-he might be bluffing here, definately not impressed by big number and/or deepish stacksizes
-he is solid -> wouldn't turn most hands with showdownvalue into bluffs for no apparent reasons and doesn't start weird plays on various streets.

Would he 3bet pf with hands such as 55-99 ? IP 100% this deep I guess but he is OOP here, so would he just call 55 or 66 ?
If he is solid deepish I would expect him to 3bet 99-55 and even hands such as 65s (96s).
After the given flop action and the huge river c/r I think it's fair to assume that his range is strongly polarised towards boat/bluff.
A flush doesn't make much sense with the given action, why would he overplay it that strongly, no hands that he has beat will call here all too often but most boats cannot fold in that spot..
I think it's fair to conclude he doesn't have a flush here all that often, neither a bare 6.
A straight with 78 is very unrealistically as well, it's quite bad to call the flop this deepish OOP if he could just jam and get it in with good equity and lots of dead monies.
Guess the key to this hand is how balanced his PF play is and if you ever saw him mixing it up pf this deepish.
If he is somewhat solid and straightforward pf then the chance of him showing up with AA is zero, 99, 66 and even 55 aren't really within that range. The way the hand played out there is a good chance this could be 56s but he only called pf while most normal regs would raise there.
Imho 96s seems to be the most likely holding which leaves us with a wide wide range of bluffs and only 1 real boat that he should have here.
He could be worried that his Twopair isn't good anymore on the flop and if he 4bets you, he would fold out worse hands and only get action by better ones (except for combodraws). So he calls the flop with the intention to see what the turn brings, then tries to c/r the turn, fails and with the given board gives it another try on the river.
My feeling is that he either has a boat with 2pair (wish is doubtful) or nothing /something realising he is beat, turning into a bluff.
The better he is and the more you would give him credit in that spot and fold flushs out, the more you should consider calling a certain amount of the time.
I really hate this spot because I can only estimate how he plays PF with these hands.
If you know his ranges and it doesn't make much sense I would call, otherwise just let it go and wait for a better spot /w more reads.
I like this hand cuz the board only leaves very few combinations and none of them really makes much sense imho. Definately need a good read here...

[/ QUOTE ]

You make a lot of unwarranted assumptions in this post.

The only other thing I think is worth mentioning is that he is almost never making the river c/r w/ a hand weaker than mine (maybe 10% of the time) if it is indeed for value, so polarizing his range here is fine.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

10% <> 'almost never'. I agree with the 'almost never' and strongly disagree with the 10%.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

Well I wrote some stuff and didn't take time to put it in good words, nonetheless I think it makes sense.
His range should be greatly polarized and if he check-raises with a worse hand he is aware that it's not for value imho. I strongly disagree that this is a bluff in 5% of the time. With the given reads you provided it could be a bluff way more often than we all think.
On the other hand I doubt it's useful to play Villian if you perceive him as good and you've got no clue what his range could be.
There should be a softer spot on 25/50 and ego-smashing shouldn't be the main reason why you are sitting there.

Which assumption do you think the most unwarrant?
Please elaborate a little, I think most of my thoughts are valid even tho I just brain stormed disregarding lucidity and syntax.
I think it's kinda comprehensible his hand is 65(s) / 96(s) or a bluff (if we assume he is somewhat solid and straightforward from a "good 25/50 regular" standpoint).
I fold in this spot most of the time and no matter what you did, I really like his play.
Results please unless you are reopening the hand discussion.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

http://www.liquidpoker.net/h/307117

ups.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.liquidpoker.net/h/307117

ups.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sick life.

Re: 25/50NL HU >300BB Deep Tough River Spot
 

m4rtox for president