20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

20/40 @ FW.

UTG is a tight player who i've never seen limp UTG.

MP1 is another tight player but a bit looser than UTG and i've seen him open limp before.

the table overall is very soft and passive for the most part, a few aggressive spots but overall towards the passive side postflop also.

typically 4-6 players to the flop for 1-2 bets.

onto the hand...

UTG limps, MP1 limps and 1 more average player limps.

you are on the button with XY.

what is the worst XY that you'd limp with there.

what is the worst XY that you'd raise with there.

and why?

Barron

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

Worst limping hand is probably 76s and JTo. Why? Because 76s is a great hand to crack an overpair with if UTG is getting tricky trying to LRR aces, and of course it has fine equity in position against all other limping hands. JT will have similar implied odds if it flops a nut straight draw, especially because its straights will involve cards that make other people 2 pair/set/TPTK type hands. Against these players I'd probably stay away from speculative hands that I'd play in other situations (against looser, worse players) like T8o, 97o, etc.

I'd also limp 22 here. Not sure what you mean by worst hand -- 76s is "worse" than JTo but it might have higher EV.

The worst hand I'd raise is probably JTs, maybe QJs.

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Worst limping hand is probably 76s and JTo. Why? Because 76s is a great hand to crack an overpair with if UTG is getting tricky trying to LRR aces, and of course it has fine equity in position against all other limping hands. JT will have similar implied odds if it flops a nut straight draw, especially because its straights will involve cards that make other people 2 pair/set/TPTK type hands. Against these players I'd probably stay away from speculative hands that I'd play in other situations (against looser, worse players) like T8o, 97o, etc.

I'd also limp 22 here. Not sure what you mean by worst hand -- 76s is "worse" than JTo but it might have higher EV.

The worst hand I'd raise is probably JTs, maybe QJs.

[/ QUOTE ]

the reason i posted it was b/c the two tight players up front both limped.

i don't know about raising QJs here. typically that is easy but this is probably exactly what i had in mind (and KJs etc.) when i was thinking "what would i need to raise these two tight players ?"

limping sure, all pairs, suited connectors etc.

i dont' see why you'd draw the "line" at 76s and not play 65s or 54s??

Barron

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

It's an arbitrary line, I admit. Being the nitbox that I am, I still find it hard to come in with 5-high, even on the button. But against bad players I'll splash around.

You may be right that QJs is a limp' or at least it's close. But in a pot that's likely to be 5-handed, I wouldn't mind having suited broadway in position for a bigger pot, even if I am dominated. It's not like I am going to play one pair really hard, but if I flop a nice combo-draw, then I can ram and jam it using my position. Having a bigger pot makes it juicier to chase it. Sure it cuts down a tad on my implied odds, but not that much. I couldn't argue with somebody limping JTs here, or even QJs, but my left hand would probably not be able to restrain itself from throwing a bunch of chips in there.

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

since they are good players, and i assume they will play well post-flop, so all suited cons, pp, maybe 78o and 89o+

i wont raise any offsuit boardway tho, given the players and situation, i'll only riase kqs+, aqo+(aqo is close), and of coz j10s+ if i m feelin lucky !

if the blinds are loose, i might even limp with jj, but usually r jj+, tens are close, i might chose to limp with it

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

Bah, we just missed you. Anyway, worst hand I'd raise is T9s and worst hand I limp is T9o. QJs is a clear raise and JTs is a bit closer, but raising is fun so I raise. T9s is pretty borderline and Id raise it against looser players, but I'd likely still end up raising here.

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

i think as far as the worst limping or raising would have to be decided on what you think of the limpers play post flop. against horrific players im in there with almost anything, against good players i try to play cautiously with hands that could be trouble hands against early position limps KJ K10 QJ Q10.

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bah, we just missed you. Anyway, worst hand I'd raise is T9s and worst hand I limp is T9o. QJs is a clear raise and JTs is a bit closer, but raising is fun so I raise. T9s is pretty borderline and Id raise it against looser players, but I'd likely still end up raising here.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was there from like 9am-1130pm [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

i got am essage from professor ben that he'd be there and i didn't see him or missed him.

i ran into some other poker guys, one of which was an old poster and cool guy and knew jfthomas from paradise lol. man we used to battle to the death.

anyways, in terms of the hand, i had JTo and folded.

if i hit, the only thing i'd wanna see is AKQ obviously or a straight draw.

i don't think i would get enough of an overlay from the other limper to justify the cost of 2nd best vs. KJ/AJ/KT/AT etc where i'm just crucified.

i was thinking at the time that i'd limp 98o far more happily than JTo since the two guys up front aren't that likely to have 9s and 8s.

it just felt odd to fold JTo on the button in a limped pot for like effectively 5:1.

maybe i was wrong but what else do you put the two guys up front on?

and i don't think i'd raise JTs. i'd just limp with it.

thoughts?

Barron

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

I think the play of the blinds has a huge impact on my decisions here, which no one has mentioned. Also, if they're passive postflop I'm still raising the lower end of my range.

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Worst limping hand is probably 76s and JTo.

I'd also limp 22 here. Not sure what you mean by worst hand -- 76s is "worse" than JTo but it might have higher EV.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with PJ here.

The worst hand I'd raise is probably TT or AJs/KQs, maybe QJs if it's really loose-passive. JTs is a good multiway hand, but I'm not aggro enough to raise that in this spot.

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

Blinds def matter, but without info..

Limp:

A2s, K2s, Q5s, J7s, T7s, 96s, 85s, 75s, 64s, 54s

A9o, KTo, QJo

22

Raise:

ATs, KTs, QJs

AJo, KQo

TT

My raising range is a lot wider from the CO.

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

[ QUOTE ]
since they are good players, and i assume they will play well post-flop, so all suited cons, pp, maybe 78o and 89o+

i wont raise any offsuit boardway tho, given the players and situation, i'll only riase kqs+, aqo+(aqo is close), and of coz j10s+ if i m feelin lucky !

if the blinds are loose, i might even limp with jj, but usually r jj+, tens are close, i might chose to limp with it



[/ QUOTE ]

This is the second post I've seen you advocate comming into post with medium unsuited connectors. Those hands are money losers in multiway limit holdem games. Not only that, they are very difficult to play when you flop a pair, two pair, and bottom straight draws.

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

[ QUOTE ]

Raise:

ATs, KTs, QJs

AJo, KQo

TT+

[/ QUOTE ]

If UTG is tight and plays very well pre-flop ATs is dominated by their range, even KQo is a bit suspect but I'd rather establish position with KQo and bypass ATs which really only has the suitedness working for itself unless UTG is limping in with a small pocket pair in a loose and passive game. I dont think the second player to act is as big a factor as the UTG player for what its worth.

[ QUOTE ]
My raising range is a lot wider from the CO.

[/ QUOTE ]

AMEN. ATs is a no-brainer now, A9s is close. I add 88 & 99 to the pairs without batting an eyelash.

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Blinds def matter, but without info..

Limp:

A2s, K2s, Q5s, J7s, T7s, 96s, 85s, 75s, 64s, 54s

A9o, KTo, QJo

22

Raise:

ATs, KTs, QJs

AJo, KQo

TT

My raising range is a lot wider from the CO.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm really surprised QJo is the worst unsuited connector you limp here

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

good meeting u barron, i talked to jfthomas, he said he wants to set something up heads up for old times sake. next time ur drinking.

brian

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

is this really what live games are like, the nittest bunch of guys ever. maybe i am missing something, and given i am used to agro 6 max and genearl sh games online, but if u can't play a huge range well in this spot i think there are major issues.
dave

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

[ QUOTE ]
good meeting u barron, i talked to jfthomas, he said he wants to set something up heads up for old times sake. next time ur drinking.

brian

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, sounds like fun haha. i don't think i'd want to have fun at 50 or 1/2 with him. i just looked at my stats vs. him and i'm missinga ton of hands vs. him i'm sure but it looks to be above breakeven w/ him destroying me early on and then me recovering pretty steadily.

mal i'm down against lifetime.

but yea man, good meeting you...hopefully i'll be free & clear next time we meet. in fact, i'll be up there next week sometime and will definitely be staying the night. i'll give jeff a call when i know my schedule.

take care man and GL at the tables,
Barron

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

[ QUOTE ]
is this really what live games are like, the nittest bunch of guys ever. maybe i am missing something, and given i am used to agro 6 max and genearl sh games online, but if u can't play a huge range well in this spot i think there are major issues.
dave

[/ QUOTE ]

i posted it specifically because there are 2 guys who are very very tight (the first one i only saw showdown 2 hands, AA and KK in 3 hrs and he barely played more than 5-10 hands in that time frame raising every one w/ the second guy being a bit looser but still not your average foxwoods player) and limping in from early position.

that is why i folded JTo, i couldn't see anything good coming of me flopping anything but the nuts lol (hyperbole)

Barron

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Blinds def matter, but without info..

Limp:

A2s, K2s, Q5s, J7s, T7s, 96s, 85s, 75s, 64s, 54s

A9o, KTo, QJo

22

Raise:

ATs, KTs, QJs

AJo, KQo

TT

My raising range is a lot wider from the CO.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks GoT. i bolded what i really wanted to concentrate on.

if i had KQo here i'd limp. assuming blinds are average and bb will not likely fold much seeing 3 limpers and a button raise and sb will fold probably 60% of the time to a raise (just a guess). building a big pot w/ that hand is not what i had in mind.

the suited connectors seem about right.

Barron

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
since they are good players, and i assume they will play well post-flop, so all suited cons, pp, maybe 78o and 89o+

i wont raise any offsuit boardway tho, given the players and situation, i'll only riase kqs+, aqo+(aqo is close), and of coz j10s+ if i m feelin lucky !

if the blinds are loose, i might even limp with jj, but usually r jj+, tens are close, i might chose to limp with it



[/ QUOTE ]

This is the second post I've seen you advocate comming into post with medium unsuited connectors. Those hands are money losers in multiway limit holdem games. Not only that, they are very difficult to play when you flop a pair, two pair, and bottom straight draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

i play them cause i think i m the better player in the game, where i can fold top pair, use free card play, knock out players, no miss bet etc. obviously i am talking live game where ppl are gerenally bad , i think i can play them by giving up some post-flop edge, and max my win rate. in this situation, i rather have 67o then kto, since we kept the pot small, i can bet when i hav top pair on flop, a k fell and some1 bet, i can jus fold and not get suck in it. whereareas, kt off you flop top pair usually hav to check call 3 streets ? you are getting 6-7 to 1 odd with the blinds coming along !

i was just trying to said that more better you are, the more hands you can play. the more you opp suck, the more hands you can play. Yes, those hands are hard to play, but i still play them, just play better post-flop !

Re: 20 on the button...worst limp, worst raise...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
good meeting u barron, i talked to jfthomas, he said he wants to set something up heads up for old times sake. next time ur drinking.

brian

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, sounds like fun haha. i don't think i'd want to have fun at 50 or 1/2 with him. i just looked at my stats vs. him and i'm missinga ton of hands vs. him i'm sure but it looks to be above breakeven w/ him destroying me early on and then me recovering pretty steadily.

mal i'm down against lifetime.

but yea man, good meeting you...hopefully i'll be free & clear next time we meet. in fact, i'll be up there next week sometime and will definitely be staying the night. i'll give jeff a call when i know my schedule.

take care man and GL at the tables,
Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

edit time expired:

i just re-read this post and it sounds like i don't want to play jfthomas at all. i'd love to for fun play lower limits HU but don't want to do it at mid-high limits. would just be tossing money around for the sake of it.

now if you all guys wanted to play a 6max table that would be interesting [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

anyways, hope to see you next week.

Barron