how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

sorry if this seems noobish. this is something i've been thinking about recently and i can't really find a good answer in past threads.

i have a libertarian background. i suspect i'm like a lot of 2+2ers in that i find things like welfare, social security, a non-isolationist military strategy, etc. to be offensive. i'm also an atheist and think the government should be completely uninvolved in citizens' lives in a social sense (read: if someone wants to get an abortion or play online poker, the government should [censored] off). this peeves the hell out of me. basically, i support a very minimal government with very minimal taxes.

this stance is extreme compared to the average person's. with that said, i've browsed this forum a bit and i see that a bunch of posters think government should be totally abolished; in comparison to this, my politics stance seems mild.

so, i've been giving some thought to anarchism and reading a bunch of threads. it seems idealistic to me because without at least a minimal form of government, how would we prevent chaos?

i posed this question to nielsio, who i believe is banned from this forum. he responded with several links:

1, 2, 3

the author discusses dros (dispute resolution organizations), to my understanding, independent insurance companies that put some kind of mark on the credit of offenders that will make it difficult/impossible for offenders to get jobs, purchase property, etc.

but this doesn't seem good enough. it seems that many nutjobs wouldn't care less about dros and that this system would be conducive to nutjobs running wild and society becoming chaotic. to me, the dro stuff seems flimsy.

would anarchists say that this point is pessimistic and doesn't give enough credit to human beings?

i understand that these thoughts are probably elementary. all comments welcome.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

Excellent question. There's really only one way that I think criminal activity could be prevented without the state...

You see, the first thing that would happen is an organization would spring up to handle security in a given region. This organization would hire security personnel to safeguard everyone in the region.

Now, everyone in this region would pay a certain percentage of their income to the security firm in exchange for their protection. If at any time a member or the region was dissatisfied with the provided service they could voice their opinion in open forums but as long as they lived in that region they must pay for their protection. If a member of this region were to be so dissatisfied with the level of service provided by the organization that he or she would feel compelled to stop paying for the security service then the security organization would correctly enter that person's home and demand the money they are owed.

If the person were to still not comply then they will be taken into seclusion by the organization and held for an amount of time that the organization decides upon. If this person were to resist their own detaining then the defenders of the organization will unfortunately have to use their issued tazers, clubs, pepper spray, handcuffs, pistols and shotguns to protect the rest of the region from this miscreant. If the dastardly perpetrator were to resist vehemently then they will be shot by regional security. A pay increase will then be issued to the personnel involved and the people in the region will gladly pay more of their income knowing that they are being protected so valiantly.

Do you see now how security works? People in a region pay for their security and if they do not then they are given harsh sanctions which (unfortunately, of course) include beatings, kidnappings and death. This is the only way to ensure that the inhabitants of the region will have their property protected and their children safeguarded.

Also, the organization will be paid as much as is necessary to ensure safety. Since, you see, rival regions are full of savages who would like nothing more than to destroy our serene region! In order that they may defend us, the organization will defend the region by attacking other regions. The members of our serene region will be more than happy to pay for this attack because the organization will surely only attack those who really really deserve it. If at any time the organization does not have enough employees to successfully attack the violent region in question then it will, at times of great need, require that you (and your children in the most extreme of cases) defend the region by murdering those that wish to destroy it. I know this sounds like a dire situation, friend, but I assure you it is the only way to ensure your safety! If you are worried that you might be punished for committing an attack against a neighboring or far-away region you needn't worry. No legal sanctions will be lodged against you. In fact, the region and all of its inhabitans, will thank you for your fine work and bravery (if only all of the regional members were so brave)!

So, there you have it. My hope for the future. I'm sure that the organizations of different regions will like slightly differently but they will all be the same in nature. They will probably even have similar names... I imagine the organizations would be called something like.. I don't know.. maybe.. Guardians Opposing Violence Territories.. GOVT for short.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

DRO's always struck me as being contingent on all parties playing along. I see no reason why several entities wouldn't cater to the shrugged off portions of society. Aside from the obvious communication issue between DRO's and respective businesses to curb commerce with criminals (especially local shops), not being able to shop at a Walmart is hardly a deterrent to crime.

Besides, some people really do belong in a 'cage'.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Excellent question. There's really only one way that I think criminal activity could be prevented without the state...

You see, the first thing that would happen is an organization would spring up to handle security in a given region. This organization would hire security personnel to safeguard everyone in the region.

Now, everyone in this region would pay a certain percentage of their income to the security firm in exchange for their protection. If at any time a member or the region was dissatisfied with the provided service they could voice their opinion in open forums but as long as they lived in that region they must pay for their protection. If a member of this region were to be so dissatisfied with the level of service provided by the organization that he or she would feel compelled to stop paying for the security service then the security organization would correctly enter that person's home and demand the money they are owed.

If the person were to still not comply then they will be taken into seclusion by the organization and held for an amount of time that the organization decides upon. If this person were to resist their own detaining then the defenders of the organization will unfortunately have to use their issued tazers, clubs, pepper spray, handcuffs, pistols and shotguns to protect the rest of the region from this miscreant. If the dastardly perpetrator were to resist vehemently then they will be shot by regional security. A pay increase will then be issued to the personnel involved and the people in the region will gladly pay more of their income knowing that they are being protected so valiantly.

Do you see now how security works? People in a region pay for their security and if they do not then they are given harsh sanctions which (unfortunately, of course) include beatings, kidnappings and death. This is the only way to ensure that the inhabitants of the region will have their property protected and their children safeguarded.

Also, the organization will be paid as much as is necessary to ensure safety. Since, you see, rival regions are full of savages who would like nothing more than to destroy our serene region! In order that they may defend us, the organization will defend the region by attacking other regions. The members of our serene region will be more than happy to pay for this attack because the organization will surely only attack those who really really deserve it. If at any time the organization does not have enough employees to successfully attack the violent region in question then it will, at times of great need, require that you (and your children in the most extreme of cases) defend the region by murdering those that wish to destroy it. I know this sounds like a dire situation, friend, but I assure you it is the only way to ensure your safety! If you are worried that you might be punished for committing an attack against a neighboring or far-away region you needn't worry. No legal sanctions will be lodged against you. In fact, the region and all of its inhabitans, will thank you for your fine work and bravery (if only all of the regional members were so brave)!

So, there you have it. My hope for the future. I'm sure that the organizations of different regions will like slightly differently but they will all be the same in nature. They will probably even have similar names... I imagine the organizations would be called something like.. I don't know.. maybe.. Guardians Opposing Violence Territories.. GOVT for short.

[/ QUOTE ]

= Mafia. Mafia Is Biggest Business in Italy

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

If freedom necessariy leads to chaos, then chaos it is. I'm not entitled to order at the expense of other people's freedom. Of course I hope that chaos in the sense you mean it would not ensue, and at the very least not last.

edit: But you really underestimate how powerful non-violent sanctions can be. If nobody wants to deal with you, you have nowhere to live, nothing to eat, noone to protect you even though everyone hates you, so on. If your irrational criminal doesn't care about that, he's going to have a tough life and die young.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If freedom necessariy leads to chaos, then chaos it is. I'm not entitled to order at the expense of other people's freedom. Of course I hope that chaos in the sense you mean it would not ensue, and at the very least not last.

edit: But you really underestimate how powerful non-violent sanctions can be. If nobody wants to deal with you, you have nowhere to live, nothing to eat, noone to protect you even though everyone hates you, so on. If your irrational criminal doesn't care about that, he's going to have a tough life and die young.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like this was touched upon in the AS thread, but I'm still not completely clear on it. In a stateless society, say these "sanctions" were imposed on the individual and he/she felt it was necessary to take violent means to get what they want, would it be allowable for a violent response to that individual?

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like this was touched upon in the AS thread, but I'm still not completely clear on it. In a stateless society, say these "sanctions" were imposed on the individual and he/she felt it was necessary to take violent means to get what they want, would it be allowable for a violent response to that individual?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, responding violently to violence has to be acceptable.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I feel like this was touched upon in the AS thread, but I'm still not completely clear on it. In a stateless society, say these "sanctions" were imposed on the individual and he/she felt it was necessary to take violent means to get what they want, would it be allowable for a violent response to that individual?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, responding violently to violence has to be acceptable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I believe I agree with this then, because the threat of violence upon the criminal if he were to become violent would also act as a deterrant to this sort of behavior.

Hmmm, how do you see people with dangerous mental disorders being handled? Would you just have to let the person be until he did some sort of harm or would there be some sort of social mechanism in place to determine that the person was a threat and needed to be placed in some sort of care facility?

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I feel like this was touched upon in the AS thread, but I'm still not completely clear on it. In a stateless society, say these "sanctions" were imposed on the individual and he/she felt it was necessary to take violent means to get what they want, would it be allowable for a violent response to that individual?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, responding violently to violence has to be acceptable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I believe I agree with this then, because the threat of violence upon the criminal if he were to become violent would also act as a deterrant to this sort of behavior.

Hmmm, how do you see people with dangerous mental disorders being handled? Would you just have to let the person be until he did some sort of harm or would there be some sort of social mechanism in place to determine that the person was a threat and needed to be placed in some sort of care facility?

[/ QUOTE ] It's a tough question. If people are nice enough to want to spend some resources on helping him, I think it would be ok to talk with the person and try to make him see that it would be in his best interest to agree to submit himself to such a facility. It's very problematic, though. Norms would have to develop concerning how long you could submit yourself. It wouldn't be reasonable that I signed a paper saying you can lock me away for the rest of my life, and then you could do that even if I later changed my mind.

Of course, if he refuses, I think we have to leave him be and not act violently against him as long as he is not acting violently himself.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

Dont you feel if you elimnated welfare crime would also increase?

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dont you feel if you elimnated welfare crime would also increase?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes. If we stop practicing organized violence to transfer goods from the rich to the poor, "crime" would probably increase. It all depends on what you define as crime, though.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8...derdomexw7.jpg

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If freedom necessariy leads to chaos, then chaos it is. I'm not entitled to order at the expense of other people's freedom. Of course I hope that chaos in the sense you mean it would not ensue, and at the very least not last.

edit: But you really underestimate how powerful non-violent sanctions can be. If nobody wants to deal with you, you have nowhere to live, nothing to eat, noone to protect you even though everyone hates you, so on. If your irrational criminal doesn't care about that, he's going to have a tough life and die young.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he doesnt care about that, THEN PRISON WILL NOT DETER HIM EITHER. Thats the more important point.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dont you feel if you elimnated welfare crime would also increase?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not, a couple hundred million people pay taxes, no way crime goes up by a couple hundred million crimes.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8...derdomexw7.jpg


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, but with competing Thunderdomes aren't we guarenteed of the best possible Thunderdomes?

Cody

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If freedom necessariy leads to chaos, then chaos it is. I'm not entitled to order at the expense of other people's freedom. Of course I hope that chaos in the sense you mean it would not ensue, and at the very least not last.

edit: But you really underestimate how powerful non-violent sanctions can be. If nobody wants to deal with you, you have nowhere to live, nothing to eat, noone to protect you even though everyone hates you, so on. If your irrational criminal doesn't care about that, he's going to have a tough life and die young.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he doesnt care about that, THEN PRISON WILL NOT DETER HIM EITHER. Thats the more important point.

[/ QUOTE ] Won't deter him, but it will keep him from doing crime while he's in prison. Of course, not for free.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
But you really underestimate how powerful non-violent sanctions can be. If nobody wants to deal with you, you have nowhere to live, nothing to eat, noone to protect you even though everyone hates you, so on. If your irrational criminal doesn't care about that, he's going to have a tough life and die young.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really think it matters if the criminal has a short life and dies young. Some whackjob that only lives to the age of 25 can still do a ton of damage if there's nothing to keep him in check.

As for the response detailing the establishment of a security firm with required membership among the citizens for protection: How is requiring people to pay for protection then punishing them with violence a better alternative to government taxing people and providing law enforcement? Seems to me like the only difference is the former is much more susceptible to power abuse and corruption because there's nothing to keep the power of the security organization in check.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
DRO's always struck me as being contingent on all parties playing along.

[/ QUOTE ]

Precisely. I think proponents of the DRO solution are far underestimating the amount of numbskulls in society who wouldnt follow a logical set of rules and would instead pretty much say "[censored] this I'll do what I want when I want and answer to no one"

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

If society ostracized a certain group of individuals it seems to be a pretty good opportunity to open up a camp where these individuals could work and have them sign a contract that says my guards can zap them with a taser if they get to rowdy.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If freedom necessariy leads to chaos, then chaos it is. I'm not entitled to order at the expense of other people's freedom. Of course I hope that chaos in the sense you mean it would not ensue, and at the very least not last.

edit: But you really underestimate how powerful non-violent sanctions can be. If nobody wants to deal with you, you have nowhere to live, nothing to eat, noone to protect you even though everyone hates you, so on. If your irrational criminal doesn't care about that, he's going to have a tough life and die young.

[/ QUOTE ]

ridiculous. parolees under the current system are shunned every bit as much as your "non-violent punishment" and they manage to survive, whether its by further criminal activity or by legitimate means.

The sarcastic post is right on. Any DRO system will eventually evolve toward government, without the name, but will have the same effect or it will be ineffective.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
As for the response detailing the establishment of a security firm with required membership among the citizens for protection: How is requiring people to pay for protection then punishing them with violence a better alternative to government taxing people and providing law enforcement? Seems to me like the only difference is the former is much more susceptible to power abuse and corruption because there's nothing to keep the power of the security organization in check.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure that guy was sarcasticly trying to point out that a stateless society would evolve into a state by that response he effectively described what states do.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
parolees under the current system are shunned every bit as much as your "non-violent punishment" and they manage to survive, whether its by further criminal activity or by legitimate means.


[/ QUOTE ]

Do they? Don't most gangbangers either die young or realize what is going to happen to them if they keep on the same trak and reform their lives?

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
parolees under the current system are shunned every bit as much as your "non-violent punishment" and they manage to survive, whether its by further criminal activity or by legitimate means.


[/ QUOTE ]

Do they? Don't most gangbangers either die young or realize what is going to happen to them if they keep on the same trak and reform their lives?

[/ QUOTE ]

gangbangers dont die because they are "shunned by society", which was the claim I was responding to.

they die at the hands of another banger or the police. Those that reform dont do so because they are "shunned by society",they realize that if they dont they wind up dead or in jail.

Notice that I said parolees. The clearest example of that is paroled sexual offenders. They are as shunned as anyone can get, including having their names and pictures posted on web sites and registration lists.

they still find jobs, they still are able to shop for food and clothing, they still find a place to live. "Non-violent" law enforcement doesnt work.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
they still find jobs, they still are able to shop for food and clothing, they still find a place to live. "Non-violent" law enforcement doesnt work.

[/ QUOTE ]

The current system does no better at preventing this activity, this can't be a mark against stateless societies.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
they still find jobs, they still are able to shop for food and clothing, they still find a place to live. "Non-violent" law enforcement doesnt work.

[/ QUOTE ]

The current system does no better at preventing this activity, this can't be a mark against stateless societies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it is a mark against a society that has "shunning" (to abbreviate the approach that was claimed would be so effective, but demonstrably isnt) as its primary means of punishment.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
they still find jobs, they still are able to shop for food and clothing, they still find a place to live. "Non-violent" law enforcement doesnt work.

[/ QUOTE ]

The current system does no better at preventing this activity, this can't be a mark against stateless societies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it is a mark against a society that has "shunning" (to abbreviate the approach that was claimed would be so effective, but demonstrably isnt) as its primary means of punishment.

[/ QUOTE ]

But this society's method of punishment is much more violent and expensive and yet is still an inneffective deterrent.

Also, I just realized that you were referring to parollees being able to still find jobs and get food and shelter. Since they have been released from prison it is assumed that they are reformed, or at least they have paid their debt to society so there is no more reason for them to be shunned.

DISCLAIMER - I'm not sold on the whole stateless society, I'm just interested to hear more about it, so I could have a lot of this wrong. Perhaps wtfsvi will get on and elaborate tomorrow.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

This society's expensive/violent punishment, no matter how ineffective it might be, is still a hell of a lot more useful than a system where the only consequence of slaughtering other humans is to have people not want to hang out with you. Large apes of humans dont beat the [censored] out of smaller wealthier citizens on a daily basis for a reason, and that reason is this violent/expensive law enforcement system. I'm sure tons of apes wouldnt think twice to bust up any of us on a whim if the only thing stopping them was a dishonorable reputation.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This society's expensive/violent punishment, no matter how ineffective it might be, is still a hell of a lot more useful than a system where the only consequence of slaughtering other humans is to have people not want to hang out with you. Large apes of humans dont beat the [censored] out of smaller wealthier citizens on a daily basis for a reason, and that reason is this violent/expensive law enforcement system. I'm sure tons of apes wouldnt think twice to bust up any of us on a whim if the only thing stopping them was a dishonorable reputation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shunning is not the only consequence violent criminals would have to fear in this stateless society. I asked wtfsvi this in an earlier post, if an individual is physically threatened they are allowed to use force back, so any violent criminal has to consider that he might just get his ass kicked.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

the point of my reply was not to suggest that protection in a stateless society would look anything like current govt.. it was to illustrate the current situation and how bad it is so we can then move forward to the stateless alternatives..

sorry if my sarcasm went unnoticed.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Notice that I said parolees. The clearest example of that is paroled sexual offenders. They are as shunned as anyone can get, including having their names and pictures posted on web sites and registration lists.

they still find jobs, they still are able to shop for food and clothing, they still find a place to live. "Non-violent" law enforcement doesnt work.

[/ QUOTE ] They are not even remotely close to "as shunned as anyone can get". As you point out, they are still able to shop for food and clothing, they still find a place to live. This must be for one of two reasons: Either people don't think what they do is so bad, or people figure it's not their responsibility to enact sanctions, because that's what they have their nanny the government for. I think the latter explanation is most likely.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This society's expensive/violent punishment, no matter how ineffective it might be, is still a hell of a lot more useful than a system where the only consequence of slaughtering other humans is to have people not want to hang out with you. Large apes of humans dont beat the [censored] out of smaller wealthier citizens on a daily basis for a reason, and that reason is this violent/expensive law enforcement system. I'm sure tons of apes wouldnt think twice to bust up any of us on a whim if the only thing stopping them was a dishonorable reputation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shunning is not the only consequence violent criminals would have to fear in this stateless society. I asked wtfsvi this in an earlier post, if an individual is physically threatened they are allowed to use force back, so any violent criminal has to consider that he might just get his ass kicked.

[/ QUOTE ] Yes. This violent and irrational "ape" of yours, would have to worry very much about getting killed.

Re: how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
the point of my reply was not to suggest that protection in a stateless society would look anything like current govt.. it was to illustrate the current situation and how bad it is so we can then move forward to the stateless alternatives..

sorry if my sarcasm went unnoticed.

[/ QUOTE ]

No need to apologize, I'm bad at teh interwebs, so I didn't pick up on it.