Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
In the hand in question, I actually folded pf. However, let's play this hand assuming I'd made the call.
Hero holds 35o on the button. 3 loose passives limp in and hero limps. SB completes, BB checks, and we're 6 handed to the flop. 46Qr SB bets out and two players call. The better is straightforward....he likely holds a Q. The loose passives could have a wide range, but likely have some sort of viable draw (one pair, a back door flush with an over....they probably aren't going to show up with 7To at least). What's hero's action? My initial thought was "Hey, this is a great time for the free card play". Is that what I should be thinking? Or is there more to it? There is no need to knock anyone out; if I hit, I will win, and if I don't, I will not, almost regardless of how many opponents remain. More to follow after a few responses. |
Re: Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
Folding preflop is correct.
35s would be a call for one bet PF only the button only, with 3 limpers in. So, we assume that you flopped an OESD on a rainbow board. Raise for free card play is probably good on this flop, as a rainbow flop. If it's a two flush flop (and not of the suit for your suited 35s) then you have to discount your outs, and a free card play is also giving a free card to anyone chasing a flush. Also, free card plays are pretty obvious, so if you take a free card on the turn and make it on the river, you are less likely to get paid off. So free card plays are cheap, but I'm not certain they are max EV. AB |
Re: Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
I think theres more value in calling since flop leader is so straight forward he will lead the turn anyway allowing you to raise when you hit and trap all the loose passives in between, your most likely gonna have correct odds to call a big bet on the turn if you miss anyway
So basically I prefer calling because you want the early pos. guy to bet out on turn/river thus allowing you to get more big bets in when you hit |
Re: Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
I like to raise the flop.You have value now and everyone will call 1 bet back to them.If you just call and you miss the turn you will have to call for odds, but it may end up hu and you might not get anything out of the flop callers.If an A hits and no one holds one your action may dry up completely.I also think that seeing 2 cards for 1 sb has a lot of value.
|
Re: Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
I'm always torn about these spots. On one hand, I see the value of getting the money out of the flop callers while we can. On the other, actually taking the free card on the turn frequently destroys our implied odds. In this situation we would be getting an extra 1.5 SB in the pot on, yes? If we think that we can't do better than that when we get there then the play has value. It's close, but I think in this situation we're usually getting paid more when we get there if we just call.
In my live game I see a lot of situations where there are anwhere from 3-5 flop callers on dry boards like this and all but one or two of them are likely to drop the turn. I think that situation is more conducive to the incredibly overused and abused free card play. I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've used free card this year, if that gives you any idea of what I think of it. Can someone, I don't know, stove this somehow? |
Re: Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
I think on this type of board that most of the time the 2 callers will fold on the turn unimproved, if we hit the 7 or 2 they are unlikely to have improved.I think its close though, and if someone threw some math at me or told me they are total callstations I could easily go with the call.
|
Re: Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
I think a free card play in this situation is fine. I think the 53 straight draw is obscure enough that the Q will pay you off on the river.
I actually like to use the free card play with straight draws when there is a flush draw on board. I bet the river if I make my straight, and bluff the river if the flush comes in. I've stolen a couple decent pots this way. |
Re: Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
* grunch *
I raise this each and every time for two reasons. One, as you said, the free card play. Two, there are 4 players in the pot (including you) and you have about a 1/3 chance of hitting your hand by the river so you have a pot equity advantage. In fact, if SB 3bets and the other two still call, I cap it. Capping the flop and then letting the turn check thru when you miss is a lot of fun. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] GcluelessnoobG |
Re: Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
I raise the flop.
You get value on your raise, and if they're all passive and predictable, you get a free card on the turn. If they're not passive or predictable, I probably just call, because you're not as likely to get a free card, but even then, if you raise, you're still getting value. |
Re: Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
Thanks for the responses so far. My main reason for asking the questions goes something like this:
Which play is more +EV, calling or raising? I haven't been able to put all the math together, but it starts like this: Calling is the base play. If I raise, I will save one small bet 2/3rds of the time (when my draw doesn't come in). 1/3rd of the time, I will probably lose a little bit of money though, since I'll have frozen everyone up on the turn. The question is, do I lose more than 1 big bet on average? If so, I feel I should call. If not, I should probably raise. The raise puts 1.5 more big bets in the pot straight away, but in many cases will cost me big bets on the turn/river. But how many? I'd love opinions on this matter. |
Re: Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
Raising the flop is fine, as you're building the pot if you hit your 8 outer and (hopefully) buy a free card. The fact that it's a rainbow board keeps the downside risk of hitting and losing to a minimum, unless of course someone's playing a BDFD, 75s, or, heaven forbid, a 5 comes up and someone holds 87s. So your potential reward seems to outweigh your risk here. You'd be horribly unlucky to hit and lose.
The difficulty comes in checking through the turn, which saves a bet but exposes your draw to villains that are paying attention. But of course if they're not paying attention they'll bet out at the river even if you hit. |
Re: Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
FCP has a decent chance of paying off because your hand is well disguised. If you do it with a flush draw, and the flush hits on the river, you might not get paid off because many of your opponents will realize what you were doing. But who's going to put you on 53?
There are many cards on the turn that might look scary enough that you could check behind and not be turning your hand up. |
Re: Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
True enough... in the abstract it's hard to put someone on 53, but don't forget about 75 as well. I'm just saying that when someone bumps the flop and checks behind on a turn card that seems a blank, you pretty much have to put them on a draw.
|
Re: Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
I've said this before, but is anyone here really concerned about "turning their hand face up" in small stakes poker? You'll probably get paid off every single time by villains saying "yup, that's what I thought you had"; and frankly, with the pot sometimes being large enough at this point, villains are probably correct in paying off.
|
Re: Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
If the flop bettor is aggressive you may just want to call. If he reraises and shuts everyone else out of the pot that is bad.
At these levels I would raise the flop. It is less likely you will get reraised and you build the pot which will encourage the other players do draw dead and pay you off. |
Re: Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
I would raise the flop. You are better
than 3:1 to make your straight and you have three callers. Bet for value. |
Re: Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
Excellent spot for a free card raise. You're main concern is that the SB will 3-bet and kill your implied odds. Against a player who you can peg so easily with his initial bet, you're in great shape. Raise.
good luck. Eric |
Re: Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
This is reasonable sounding logic, but I don't think it holds up under close scrutiny. The deceptive part is understanding that the extra bets you get when you catch don't quite make up for the extra bets you lose when you (usually) miss.
It's probably not a bad play though... I'd guesstimate that you are betting 1SB at 3.5:1 that you will make your straight on the turn. -eric |
Re: Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
The raise also controls the action on the turn. If one of the callers improves to two pair/trips then we could face two cold on turn.
We have equity The callers generally miss and fold the flop so we get 1.5BB on raising the flop for sure and likely 1BB on the turn (prob on average its even: 1 better and 0.5 callers). We get control of the action on the turn Raise |
Re: Live 6/12: Straight Draw on the button
[ QUOTE ]
The raise also controls the action on the turn. If one of the callers improves to two pair/trips then we could face two cold on turn. [/ QUOTE ] I like this thinking, if someone had a middle pocket pair and hit their 2 outer or was slow playing a set or improves to 2 pair. They very well may check to you intending to raise,and you can take your free card instead of facing 2 cold. |
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:21 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.