the \"you win\" rule
 

Have you guys ever used this rule or seen it used?
The rule is:
If it is HU on the river, and one player says "you win" after all action has been completed, the other player can just muck his hand and take the pot with no showdown.

What is the purpose of this rule, other than putting me in a situation where someone will try to stab me in the parking lot?

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

to prevent slowrolling supposedly

pretty sure the real purpose behind the rule is to get people to get into retarded conversations at the table about what exact words one can say to get around the rule or angle-reangle each other

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

The purpose of this rule is to preent an angle where someone says "you win" and then attempts to claim the pot if the other player takes that as a cencession and mucks his hand thinking he has won.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
The purpose of this rule is to preent an angle where someone says "you win" and then attempts to claim the pot if the other player takes that as a cencession and mucks his hand thinking he has won.

[/ QUOTE ]

will the floor generally try to retrieve the cards from the muck to have a proper showdown?

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The purpose of this rule is to preent an angle where someone says "you win" and then attempts to claim the pot if the other player takes that as a cencession and mucks his hand thinking he has won.

[/ QUOTE ]

will the floor generally try to retrieve the cards from the muck to have a proper showdown?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if the cards are retrievable th ebest hand wins. Note: your milage may vary because modern cardrooms are known for having floorstaff that gets a rule half right.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
The purpose of this rule is to preent an angle where someone says "you win" and then attempts to claim the pot if the other player takes that as a cencession and mucks his hand thinking he has won.

[/ QUOTE ]

And creates another angle where a player mucks a probable loser when he hears anything approximating "you win".

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The purpose of this rule is to preent an angle where someone says "you win" and then attempts to claim the pot if the other player takes that as a cencession and mucks his hand thinking he has won.

[/ QUOTE ]

And creates another angle where a player mucks a probable loser when he hears anything approximating "you win".

[/ QUOTE ]

Cliff Notes follow after my usual blather.

That and the influx of multiple languages being spoken in LA (meaning verbal declarations are often misunderstood) was a reason it was taken out of the 1997 update to the rulebook shared by the big LA County clubs.

But many of the old time floor staff and management still tended to like the "You Win" rule so over time it started sneaking back in "the rules"; usually via the poker manager via memo or an entry into the floor staff logbook.

IMO it tends to create more problems then it solves, at least here in LA. Recently I saw a sign near the podium of Hawaiian Gardens top section that said"The "You Win" rule no longer applies. Cards Speak." I didn't realize it did apply and would never use it either way (as a player).

-------

Cliff Notes: Don't count on such a rule existing or consistent or practical enforcement.

~ Rick

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

I saw a situation a few months ago where a guy threw his cards up in the air and said something like “it’s yours, I don’t have anything”. The other player in the pot, a woman on the opposite side of the dealer mucked her hand thinking she had won. She could not see the action clearly around the dealer and thought the other player had folded without calling her river bet, but he had actually called and then tossed his cards up in the air. His cards had landed face up on top of the board, so the floor ruled he had not mucked his hand. The woman had mucked her hand without showing it. The floor said cards speak and only the man showed his cards so he won the pot.

The woman was mad and thought this was some kind of angle. She and another woman proceeded to give the guy a hard time and he left a few hands later, which is too bad because he was a real loose calling stallion, although he was close to busting out anyway.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

More Cliff notes: just hold on to your **** cards untill the pot is pushed to you and you have no problems, pretty simple.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
over time it started sneaking back in "the rules"; usually via the poker manager via memo or an entry into the floor staff logbook.

[/ QUOTE ]What goes into the floor staff logbook? Surely not all rulings made during a shift. Who reviews the logbook, and for what purpose?

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

I rarely see that happen. In the bad old days, players would try to pull the "you win" angle often enough that it made sense for the rule to be in the book. I must have seen it 25 times. I never saw anyone try to claim he folded because his opponent said "you win" when the opponent claimed he did not say it.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

Once, a hundred years ago, I opened the pot in draw poker with pocket kings. An opponent who had previously passed (in draw, a pass is not a fold), called and drew 3. Knowing this opponent, I knew he likely had aces, so I drew one and bet out. He called. I tapped the table, but I didn't really mean "you win," I meant, "Nice call, you very likely win." I tabled my kings and he looked and looked and layed his hand down and he had kings and I won with my kickers.

He protested, the floor was called, and I was awarded the pot. The cardroom (Normandie) did not have the "you win" rule; I likely would have been awarded the pot anyway by this particular floorman, but that's another story.

I've seen players tap the table after they call an opponent who has tabled his hand on the river, and then turn over a winning hand. On occasion it is an actual misread, but more often, it is indeed a slowroll, and an ugly one: a normal slowroll leaves you unsure about whether you have won; this kind, where your opponent taps the table, make you think you have won for sure.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
I saw a situation a few months ago where a guy threw his cards up in the air and said something like “it’s yours, I don’t have anything”. The other player in the pot, a woman on the opposite side of the dealer mucked her hand thinking she had won. She could not see the action clearly around the dealer and thought the other player had folded without calling her river bet, but he had actually called and then tossed his cards up in the air. His cards had landed face up on top of the board, so the floor ruled he had not mucked his hand. The woman had mucked her hand without showing it. The floor said cards speak and only the man showed his cards so he won the pot.

The woman was mad and thought this was some kind of angle. She and another woman proceeded to give the guy a hard time and he left a few hands later, which is too bad because he was a real loose calling stallion, although he was close to busting out anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is horrible yet funny. I thought it would be pretty obvious that someone who throws their cards intentionally in the air has folded. The lesson as always is hold onto your cards until the pot is on its way.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
Once, a hundred years ago, I opened the pot in draw poker with pocket kings. An opponent who had previously passed (in draw, a pass is not a fold), called and drew 3. Knowing this opponent, I knew he likely had aces, so I drew one and bet out. He called. I tapped the table, but I didn't really mean "you win," I meant, "Nice call, you very likely win." I tabled my kings and he looked and looked and layed his hand down and he had kings and I won with my kickers.

He protested, the floor was called, and I was awarded the pot. The cardroom (Normandie) did not have the "you win" rule; I likely would have been awarded the pot anyway by this particular floorman, but that's another story.

I've seen players tap the table after they call an opponent who has tabled his hand on the river, and then turn over a winning hand. On occasion it is an actual misread, but more often, it is indeed a slowroll, and an ugly one: a normal slowroll leaves you unsure about whether you have won; this kind, where your opponent taps the table, make you think you have won for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Today a table tap seems to have many different meanings I see people do it in all different situations and having different apparent meanings that i never assign any meaning to it anymore.

Of course a hundred years ago things were different.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
Have you guys ever used this rule or seen it used?
The rule is:
If it is HU on the river, and one player says "you win" after all action has been completed, the other player can just muck his hand and take the pot with no showdown.

What is the purpose of this rule, other than putting me in a situation where someone will try to stab me in the parking lot?

[/ QUOTE ]
Here is an article that might be applicable here:

http://twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue35/angelo1107.html

If you have a hand, just flip your damn cards over. If you are the mucker variety, then you too someday will muck a winning hand and the floor will rule the pot to villain. And then you'll cry and I'll say I told you so.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

cards speak

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

In a 1/2 game about a week ago: I raised preflop, got one caller, bet out on the flop and turn, he calls both bets (I was in the BB and he limped on the button) Finally I gave up on the river when it read Q T 4 9 K and I had A5 suited in spades. I said you win, couldn't imagine what he could call all my bets with that wouldn't beat A high with no kicker. Just prior to flinging my cards into the air flying towards the muck he tabled J7 of diamonds (one diamond on the whole board, one on the flop) and said "Thought I might make a hand", I just smiled and still folded my hand, first time in my life I have ever intentionally folded a winner but felt obligated to do so. Am 99% sure that in this room if I had shown down I still would have been awarded the pot.

Jimbo

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

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[ QUOTE ]
over time it started sneaking back in "the rules"; usually via the poker manager via memo or an entry into the floor staff logbook.

[/ QUOTE ]What goes into the floor staff logbook? Surely not all rulings made during a shift. Who reviews the logbook, and for what purpose?

[/ QUOTE ]

My experience comes from Hollywood Park (1996-2000) where I was a floor and The Bike (2001-2005) where I was a nl host/lead prop sort.

Typically the log will have a record of who is barred/unbarred or to be watched closely and changes to policies (either handwritten or pasted in memos). Typical rule changes that might be logged would be similar to the following:

- who gets the odd chip in a new high limit Omaha/8 game (where the players don't like the written rule).

- what happens if a player is unaware of a raise (only puts in a call) and there is subsequent action (this must have changed ten times at Hollywood park).

- "latest and greatest" [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] must move policy.

- new game structures

- clarification (or further foggy notions) regarding problem rulings

As noted this is simply my experience in two clubs.

~ Rick

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

This seems pretty accurate. I would add that where I am now does this by email so the floor staff has to stay current with their work email.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
In a 1/2 game about a week ago: I raised preflop, got one caller, bet out on the flop and turn, he calls both bets (I was in the BB and he limped on the button) Finally I gave up on the river when it read Q T 4 9 K and I had A5 suited in spades. I said you win, couldn't imagine what he could call all my bets with that wouldn't beat A high with no kicker. Just prior to flinging my cards into the air flying towards the muck he tabled J7 of diamonds (one diamond on the whole board, one on the flop) and said "Thought I might make a hand", I just smiled and still folded my hand, first time in my life I have ever intentionally folded a winner but felt obligated to do so. Am 99% sure that in this room if I had shown down I still would have been awarded the pot.

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh. Didn't he have a straight?

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

Hawaiian Gardens has a big sign: "The 'you win' rule is no longer in effect." up on the wall. No one seems to have a clue what it means.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a 1/2 game about a week ago: I raised preflop, got one caller, bet out on the flop and turn, he calls both bets (I was in the BB and he limped on the button) Finally I gave up on the river when it read Q T 4 9 K and I had A5 suited in spades. I said you win, couldn't imagine what he could call all my bets with that wouldn't beat A high with no kicker. Just prior to flinging my cards into the air flying towards the muck he tabled J7 of diamonds (one diamond on the whole board, one on the flop) and said "Thought I might make a hand", I just smiled and still folded my hand, first time in my life I have ever intentionally folded a winner but felt obligated to do so. Am 99% sure that in this room if I had shown down I still would have been awarded the pot.

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh. Didn't he have a straight?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I am confused. Where does the poster think A high beats a K Q J 10 9 straight?

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a 1/2 game about a week ago: I raised preflop, got one caller, bet out on the flop and turn, he calls both bets (I was in the BB and he limped on the button) Finally I gave up on the river when it read Q T 4 9 K and I had A5 suited in spades. I said you win, couldn't imagine what he could call all my bets with that wouldn't beat A high with no kicker. Just prior to flinging my cards into the air flying towards the muck he tabled J7 of diamonds (one diamond on the whole board, one on the flop) and said "Thought I might make a hand", I just smiled and still folded my hand, first time in my life I have ever intentionally folded a winner but felt obligated to do so. Am 99% sure that in this room if I had shown down I still would have been awarded the pot.

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh. Didn't he have a straight?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I am confused. Where does the poster think A high beats a K Q J 10 9 straight?

[/ QUOTE ]
Y'all always look too closely at the details of these things. Just go with the spirit of the story and you'll be happier.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a 1/2 game about a week ago: I raised preflop, got one caller, bet out on the flop and turn, he calls both bets (I was in the BB and he limped on the button) Finally I gave up on the river when it read Q T 4 9 K and I had A5 suited in spades. I said you win, couldn't imagine what he could call all my bets with that wouldn't beat A high with no kicker. Just prior to flinging my cards into the air flying towards the muck he tabled J7 of diamonds (one diamond on the whole board, one on the flop) and said "Thought I might make a hand", I just smiled and still folded my hand, first time in my life I have ever intentionally folded a winner but felt obligated to do so. Am 99% sure that in this room if I had shown down I still would have been awarded the pot.

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh. Didn't he have a straight?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a 1/2 game about a week ago: I raised preflop, got one caller, bet out on the flop and turn, he calls both bets (I was in the BB and he limped on the button) Finally I gave up on the river when it read Q T 4 9 K and I had A5 suited in spades. I said you win, couldn't imagine what he could call all my bets with that wouldn't beat A high with no kicker. Just prior to flinging my cards into the air flying towards the muck he tabled J7 of diamonds (one diamond on the whole board, one on the flop) and said "Thought I might make a hand", I just smiled and still folded my hand, first time in my life I have ever intentionally folded a winner but felt obligated to do so. Am 99% sure that in this room if I had shown down I still would have been awarded the pot.

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh. Didn't he have a straight?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I am confused. Where does the poster think A high beats a K Q J 10 9 straight?

[/ QUOTE ]
Y'all always look too closely at the details of these things. Just go with the spirit of the story and you'll be happier.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think you used "spirit" here in the right context and "y'all" isn't a word.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

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Hawaiian Gardens has a big sign: "The 'you win' rule is no longer in effect." up on the wall. No one seems to have a clue what it means.

[/ QUOTE ]

cept me of course (see post above) [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

I don't think I have ever actually seen this enforced but I know it's technically on the books in my room.

Honestly, I don't show my hand unless I absolutely have to. I don't want to give away information if my opponent is going to muck his hand rather than show it.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

I had this happen to me last month. I had been bluffing on all 3 streets. When my opponent called the river I said "You win" and tabled my Q high face up. He immediately claimed the pot and said that he did not have to show his hand. I did not believe him and invoked IWTSTH. So he is right?

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had this happen to me last month. I had been bluffing on all 3 streets. When my opponent called the river I said "You win" and tabled my Q high face up. He immediately claimed the pot and said that he did not have to show his hand. I did not believe him and invoked IWTSTH. So he is right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe so. The point of the rule is to protect the player who mucks his hand based on your concession, not to allow a player who sees your hand and knows he has a loser to win the pot.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had this happen to me last month. I had been bluffing on all 3 streets. When my opponent called the river I said "You win" and tabled my Q high face up. He immediately claimed the pot and said that he did not have to show his hand. I did not believe him and invoked IWTSTH. So he is right?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. At that point you had tabled your hand and he still had possession of his. He has to show the best hand to claim the pot.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had this happen to me last month. I had been bluffing on all 3 streets. When my opponent called the river I said "You win" and tabled my Q high face up. He immediately claimed the pot and said that he did not have to show his hand. I did not believe him and invoked IWTSTH. So he is right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you're even really invoking IWTSTH by asking to see his hand here. You're insisting that his hand be tabled at showdown if he wishes to claim the pot.

Also, villain is a douchebag and deserves a KITN for this.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a 1/2 game about a week ago: I raised preflop, got one caller, bet out on the flop and turn, he calls both bets (I was in the BB and he limped on the button) Finally I gave up on the river when it read Q T 4 9 K and I had A5 suited in spades. I said you win, couldn't imagine what he could call all my bets with that wouldn't beat A high with no kicker. Just prior to flinging my cards into the air flying towards the muck he tabled J7 of diamonds (one diamond on the whole board, one on the flop) and said "Thought I might make a hand", I just smiled and still folded my hand, first time in my life I have ever intentionally folded a winner but felt obligated to do so. Am 99% sure that in this room if I had shown down I still would have been awarded the pot.

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh. Didn't he have a straight?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I am confused. Where does the poster think A high beats a K Q J 10 9 straight?

[/ QUOTE ]
Y'all always look too closely at the details of these things. Just go with the spirit of the story and you'll be happier.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think you used "spirit" here in the right context and "y'all" isn't a word.

[/ QUOTE ]

Y'all isn't a word, it's an abbreviation of two words, when did this become English class?

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

You win rule not in effect at CP, at least not that I've ever seen. I often hear something to the effect of "if you can call, you win," or, "you got me, you win." The winning hand still must be shown unless the "you win" guy mucks. The dealer will not push the pot unless "you win" mucks or he is shown the winner.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
You win rule not in effect at CP, at least not that I've ever seen. I often hear something to the effect of "if you can call, you win," or, "you got me, you win." The winning hand still must be shown unless the "you win" guy mucks. The dealer will not push the pot unless "you win" mucks or he is shown the winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never seen this as a dealer enforced rule, the floor needs to do it. I have been out of LA, so it has been a few years since I saw it enforced.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a 1/2 game about a week ago: I raised preflop, got one caller, bet out on the flop and turn, he calls both bets (I was in the BB and he limped on the button) Finally I gave up on the river when it read Q T 4 9 K and I had A5 suited in spades. I said you win, couldn't imagine what he could call all my bets with that wouldn't beat A high with no kicker. Just prior to flinging my cards into the air flying towards the muck he tabled J7 of diamonds (one diamond on the whole board, one on the flop) and said "Thought I might make a hand", I just smiled and still folded my hand, first time in my life I have ever intentionally folded a winner but felt obligated to do so. Am 99% sure that in this room if I had shown down I still would have been awarded the pot.

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh. Didn't he have a straight?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I am confused. Where does the poster think A high beats a K Q J 10 9 straight?

[/ QUOTE ]
Y'all always look too closely at the details of these things. Just go with the spirit of the story and you'll be happier.

[/ QUOTE ]


LOL, I didn't post the hand any better than I played it. The nine must have been an eight, but Bav is right, it was the thought that counts in this case. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Jimbo

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I have ever actually seen this enforced but I know it's technically on the books in my room.


[/ QUOTE ]


I saw it enforced once at Commerce 9/16 against this angle shooting punk that did this incessantly.


AB

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

I saw this enforced at the bike 5/10NL game when someone checked behind on the river and said you win tabling his missed nut flush draw. The other guy had a lower flush draw and asked for the pot even after showing his hand. THe floor gave the pot to the guy with the worst hand. I've also seen the rule not enforced.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
Y'all isn't a word, it's an abbreviation of two words, when did this become English class?

[/ QUOTE ]
There was a very significant lack of seriousness in my post. Just giving bav the gears, ya know.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
I saw this enforced at the bike 5/10NL game when someone checked behind on the river and said you win tabling his missed nut flush draw. The other guy had a lower flush draw and asked for the pot even after showing his hand. THe floor gave the pot to the guy with the worst hand. I've also seen the rule not enforced.

[/ QUOTE ]

That player should have asked for the shift supervisor to get the correct ruling.

Re: the \"you win\" rule
 

[ QUOTE ]
I saw this enforced at the bike 5/10NL game when someone checked behind on the river and said you win tabling his missed nut flush draw. The other guy had a lower flush draw and asked for the pot even after showing his hand. THe floor gave the pot to the guy with the worst hand. I've also seen the rule not enforced.

[/ QUOTE ]

that floor needs a KITTN