The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

What is the rule and what is proper ettitqutte when it comes to asking to see someones cards that they have mucked at the showdown? Who is allowed to ask to see the cards in the hand and what is considered bad ettitquite in doing it?

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

It's bad ettiquite to ask the loser to see their hand. Don't do it. The only reason you should ever do it is if you believe there is collusion at the table. This is the original intent of the rule.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

Does the rule allow for anyone at the table to ask to see the cards or only people in the hand at the end of the hand?

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

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Does the rule allow for anyone at the table to ask to see the cards or only people in the hand at the end of the hand?

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Anyone given cards at the start of the hand. The etiquette is that you should almost never do it.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

Anyone dealt in to the hand, regardless of if they are still in e hand or not


AB

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

Where I work only players still in the hand at showdown can ask. I love telling people who ask that they don't have that right at my casino.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

"Who" can ask is irrelevant, as the "when" should be "never".

Don't do it. Just... don't. Step away from this path and choose another.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

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"Who" can ask is irrelevant, as the "when" should be "never".

Don't do it. Just... don't. Step away from this path and choose another.

[/ QUOTE ]


I played next to a woman at the Taj who requested to see her opponents mucked cards in every hand she was involved in.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Who" can ask is irrelevant, as the "when" should be "never".

Don't do it. Just... don't. Step away from this path and choose another.

[/ QUOTE ]


I played next to a woman at the Taj who requested to see her opponents mucked cards in every hand she was involved in.

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If you find yourself in this situation ask for a floorperson. If they are clearly abusing this rule they will lose the ability to ask, but it has to be breought to the floor's attention.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

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Where I work only players still in the hand at showdown can ask. I love telling people who ask that they don't have that right at my casino.

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Which casino do you own? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

if i show the winning hand opponents can much-----fine. but what gets me is this:

the river gets checked down when its HU and i have position. the guy who is first to act must have missed a draw and just says "i muck" or "i fold" or whatever. Im gonna ask to see his cards everytime before i even show my hand. I dont think that is out of line, but i feel like alot of people do. the way i see it is, i show my cards in order when its time for a showdown. i dunno, a lil off topic but it bothers me

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
if i show the winning hand opponents can much-----fine. but what gets me is this:

the river gets checked down when its HU and i have position. the guy who is first to act must have missed a draw and just says "i muck" or "i fold" or whatever. Im gonna ask to see his cards everytime before i even show my hand. I dont think that is out of line, but i feel like alot of people do. the way i see it is, i show my cards in order when its time for a showdown. i dunno, a lil off topic but it bothers me

[/ QUOTE ]
Please read this:

http://twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue35/angelo1107.html

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

my work filter blocks this post for some reason, wanna give me the gist?

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

I feel it is bad ettiquette to invoke a rule for a reason other than the integrity of the game.

Players invoke this rule often not for the reason the rule is in place, which is to prevent cheating, but for their own personal reasons such as gaining information about how someone played a hand or simply out of curiosity.

And I honestly believe most of these players feel it is perfectly fine to ask to see such a hand. As a matter of fact, if most players either feel this way now or the majority end up feeling this way, then it may just become "fine" to do this.

I am in the other camp however. To pass on my opinion on this matter, I will usually ask the player why they are accusing me of cheating. They usually don't know why I am asking them that so I inform them. I might get the floor involved if the player is completely unreceptive to my suggestions. Depending on how all this turns out I may go on about Robert's Rules, being a gentleman, etc.

Spread the word and stomp out this disgusting practice of asking to see a mucked hand.

while we\'re on the subject ....
 

Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread.

Player A shows his cards to Player B before mucking at the showdown. I assume there's no ettiquite breach in asking to see A's cards under "Show One - Show All?"

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

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It's bad ettiquite to ask the loser to see their hand. Don't do it. The only reason you should ever do it is if you believe there is collusion at the table. This is the original intent of the rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

Unfortunately, the rule according to the floor at my main card room is that anyone dealt in the hand can ask to see anyone's cards at showdown, whether or not anyone suspects cheating. Certain regulars do it every time like clockwork. It used to put me on tilt when it happened to me, but I've adapted. Anyone else play somewhere where the floor is so loose and accepting of this rule?

Re: while we\'re on the subject ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread.

Player A shows his cards to Player B before mucking at the showdown. I assume there's no ettiquite breach in asking to see A's cards under "Show One - Show All?"

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Yes, this is fine, because the rationale behind each rule is different. SOSA exists so that information shared is equally available to all players. IWTSTH, by contrast, is a measure to protect game integrity; as such, when you invoke it, you are accusing another player of colluding.

That said, while it's not an ettiquette breach to invoke SOSA, often the biggest SOSA offenders are very casual poker players, and I think it can be -EV to bother them about it.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

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the river gets checked down when its HU and i have position. the guy who is first to act must have missed a draw and just says "i muck" or "i fold" or whatever. Im gonna ask to see his cards everytime before i even show my hand. I dont think that is out of line, but i feel like alot of people do. the way i see it is, i show my cards in order when its time for a showdown. i dunno, a lil off topic but it bothers me

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Why not just say, "okay, then, muck your hand" and take the pot without a showdown? You're setting yourself up to get beat by a backdoor draw the mucker didn't notice.

People get way too worked up over this on all sides. Okay, yeah, the rule was initially for collusion, but obviously nobody uses it that way these days, so don't get all up in arms that someone's thinking you're cheating. Not like anybody who's asking is going to get any useful information out of it.


Don't ask to see mucked hands, period. Don't get annoyed by those who do, period.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

After going many many sessions without seeing this rule invoked, a guy asked to see my losing hand on the river. I was already pissed that I had lost after flopping a set - and now I resented having to show the table how I play my sets. So I asked him if he was accusing me of cheating. He said no - and the dealer turned the cards over anyway.

I ended up getting the dealer mad about my comments about how innapropriate invoking IWTSTH is to satisfy curiosity. However, the dealer did tell the player that he was not allowed to invoke the rule again. The Floor also reiterated that.

Unfortunately the floodgates were opened and two more IWTSTH requests were made - though not by the same guy.

I am currently looking to get Foxwoods to change their policy which no Floor to my knowledge likes anyway. I would like to see a player have to state that he suspects collusion in order to see a mucked hand on the river.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

Slightly OT: There is a player in my home game who, at showdown, tries to show down as few cards as possible to determine if he has enough to win (1 in hold 'em games, 2 in Omaha games). It's an official rule that you have to table a full hand if you're staking a claim to the pot, right? Out of line to ask for this?

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

The other day I asked to see a hand for the first time ever.

It was limit and the turn action was A bet, B raise, I fold, A call. River check check, A mucks and B pushes his cards forward face down with tip. They were two asian guys who had been speaking a couple times between hands in asian. I asked to see a winner, they protested a little bit, and I said it was fair for me to ask to see a real hand. I wouldn't say that I definitely thought they were colluding, I just wanted to make sure that I protect myself from the possibility.

B flashed me one card that paired the board so I let it go. Nothing else suspicious happened.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

This rule is a "PRIVLAGE" not a "right" indeed anyone that was delt cards in the beginning of a hand has a "right" to ask to see a losing players hand in a called showdown but it is a "privalge" for it to be utilized more than once... if somone at your table is continuing to ask to see the losing hands of players then just call the floor and they will stop it.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

I will ask sometimes, but it has to meet the situation of a maniac/shady guy who has been angle shooting; and I ask when its allin before the flop/turn is dealt. Usually the dealer just ask to both set of cards, but if the person really wants to muck, then let him. I don't think you should ever ask after the person has mucked, unless you really expect cheating.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Slightly OT: There is a player in my home game who, at showdown, tries to show down as few cards as possible to determine if he has enough to win (1 in hold 'em games, 2 in Omaha games). It's an official rule that you have to table a full hand if you're staking a claim to the pot, right? Out of line to ask for this?

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Not out of line imo. I do it all the time. Although most ppl I play with also play in B&Ms so they are familiar that that's the way it has to be.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The other day I asked to see a hand for the first time ever.

It was limit and the turn action was A bet, B raise, I fold, A call. River check check, A mucks and B pushes his cards forward face down with tip. They were two asian guys who had been speaking a couple times between hands in asian. I asked to see a winner, they protested a little bit, and I said it was fair for me to ask to see a real hand. I wouldn't say that I definitely thought they were colluding, I just wanted to make sure that I protect myself from the possibility.

B flashed me one card that paired the board so I let it go. Nothing else suspicious happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it was generous of him to show you, since this wasn't even an IWTSTH situation. The rule only allows players to request to see a hand when there has been a showdown, which didn't happen here.

However, it sounds like you certainly had reason to suspect collusion. This shows why the IWTSTH is so ridiculously stupid - it doesn't stop collusion at all. How often would there be a showdown if there is collusion going on? More likely two players would squeeze a third player out, then one folds, just like what happened in your game.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

Anyone is allowed to ask if they suspect collusion. Otherwise, dont' do it. Running off the fish, however, is -ev.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

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This rule is a "PRIVLAGE" not a "right" indeed anyone that was delt cards in the beginning of a hand has a "right" to ask to see a losing players hand in a called showdown but it is a "privalge" for it to be utilized more than once... if somone at your table is continuing to ask to see the losing hands of players then just call the floor and they will stop it.

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and you know this because??

you are all almost all wrong here. The etiquette is to not ask to often. Outside of the cult of 2+2, it is not bad ettiquette to ask that and hand in a showdown be shown down.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

Does anyone know how the floorpeople handle this situation at Borgata. It really pisses me off when it goes check, check on river and i say..."you got it, i missed." Then some other jerk says, "i want to see his cards."
After the dealer turns it over, i explain to him that that is bad etiquette. And they always say, it's my right to know and see your cards. Soo, will calling the floor over at Borg help my cause. To me, it's amateur BS and poor etiquette.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

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Does anyone know how the floorpeople handle this situation at Borgata. It really pisses me off when it goes check, check on river and i say..."you got it, i missed." Then some other jerk says, "i want to see his cards."
After the dealer turns it over, i explain to him that that is bad etiquette. And they always say, it's my right to know and see your cards. Soo, will calling the floor over at Borg help my cause. To me, it's amateur BS and poor etiquette.

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It'll help if someone is frequently asking, but not if its just once or twice.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This rule is a "PRIVLAGE" not a "right" indeed anyone that was delt cards in the beginning of a hand has a "right" to ask to see a losing players hand in a called showdown but it is a "privalge" for it to be utilized more than once... if somone at your table is continuing to ask to see the losing hands of players then just call the floor and they will stop it.

[/ QUOTE ]

and you know this because??

you are all almost all wrong here. The etiquette is to not ask to often. Outside of the cult of 2+2, it is not bad ettiquette to ask that and hand in a showdown be shown down.

[/ QUOTE ]

apparently you play 1/2 limit "poker" with a bunch of 70 year old grandmothers.

Please ban.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

Calling the floor will not help your cause in this case. In fact in the situation you describe, when player 1 just says "You win, I missed" and mucks the dealer is supposed to turn your hand over to be seen. I'm fairly certain the Borgata rule states with equal action on the river a winning hand must always be shown.

-ActionBob

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

Speaking of 70 year old grandmothers...I'm playing 4-8 limit at the Orleans waiting for the tournament to start.
Running over the game and 3 times the same old duffer asks to see my cards. I tell the dealer if she's gonna keep showing I want to see his cards everytime.
When I go to cash out +300 I tell all the grey hairs at the table "see ya next week, bring another social security check".
When in doubt sail your cards into the muck, then the dealer can't dig them out.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

I agree that if you call and your opponent tables the winning hand no one should ask you to see it when you muck. Similarly if you bet and they call you shouldn't ask to see it if you win. I do agree with people however that people who don't show when they're first to act (usually after being called on a bluff), just declaring 'you got it' or open mucking are bloody annoying. I paid to see what he had just as much as I did to win the pot and I deserve to see it.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

Also even if your opponent does ask to see in one of the first two situations I mentioned I still don't see why people get so worked up about it. If you want etiquette go to a retirement home and have some tea with them. If you want to do well at poker there is nothing wrong with gaining very valuable information.

I bet all of you never look at your opponent's showdown cards online? or turn the option off for instant show on PaHUD? yeah i bet.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

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open mucking are bloody annoying.

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I'm in favor of people open-mucking. I encourage you to do so when playing against me.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

Never seen a word mispelt so many times and not even close to the correct one...
There is not good or bad etiquette, rules says that if you show one card anyone can ask to see the second one and the dealer should enforce this if asked.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

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rules says that if you show one card anyone can ask to see the second one and the dealer should enforce this if asked.

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Now THAT is a rare and moronic rule.

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

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rules says that if you show one card anyone can ask to see the second one and the dealer should enforce this if asked.

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Now THAT is a rare and moronic rule.

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Not so rare anymore. Before the WSOP this year Harrah's ran around poker room to poker room in Vegas to "standardize" a few things and one of those was the enforcement of this new (I think it's new) rule. Show one show both is the rule of the land in Harrah's casinos (last I checked...haven't seen this actually enforced in a while).

Re: The rule and ettiquitte on asking to see mucked cards at showdown?
 

Usually it doesnt bother me, except today. I lost about $5,000 in Oct., and am down this month. Today I have lost $400 of my only $500 buyin when UTG silently tosses out a single green chip. MP asks dealer what that means and dealer says it's a call. UTG is incredulous, is that the rule in this casino? Dealer replys that its the rule in every casino. Two more calls and I get to play Qc7c for only $5 in small blind. Flop 774. For some reason I don't lead. BB checks, UTG bets $15. For some reason I just call and bb calls. Turn 6. For some reason I dont lead, check, check. River 5. Now I have to check, BB bets, UTG cries but eventually folds, I think but decide I have to call. BB shows 86 for straight. I shake my head and muck.

UTG says I want to see his hand! Pointing at me. Dealer flips my cards and UTG dork says I knew one of em had a 7. Its all I can do to hold back a torrent of obscenities. Finally I say if you want to see my cards, next time show me yours. He responds, I did. The guy next to me confirms UTG flashed the table pocket jacks, which must have been while I pondered my call. Yes, the guy was showing his cards while the hand was still being played. At this point I can see only red and bust the very next hand (KQ allin preflop called by 87). Thank god I did not have another buyin.