FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

Foxwoods 20/40 (7 players):

Hero is NinaWilliams.

SB is me. Previous to this SB had donked 66 on a KK3 flop 4-way after limping and getting raised by Hero preflop.
MP is aggressive preflop and passive and loose postflop. He peels flops lightly and is passive even with hands like top pair and better. He has been seen checking a flop behind after raising preflop 3-way.
HJ is loose-aggressive preflop. He has been seen 3-betting pocket 3s against an EP raise and is known for playing preflop far from optimally. However, his postflop play is relatively solid and he doesn't do much out of line. He will get aggressive with his good hands.

MP raises 3 off the BTN, HJ calls, SB calls, Hero calls AT[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB donks, Hero...

Don't care what you do here alone. Plan for the rest of hand? Thoughts about SBs preflop calling, flop donking range?

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

Raise.

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

i can come up with many reasons to fold but only a couple for raising/calling so i fold

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

Fold preflop; ATo is dominated too easily to an MP raise.

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

If you're struggling folding on this flop with two players to act, I agree with PJ; just muck them pre. As played, fold the flop, and it's not that close IMO.

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

Fold the flop but please don't fold preflop. PJ you nitbox.

-DeathDonkey

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop but please don't fold preflop. PJ you nitbox.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, I was just saying that if you call preflop, you HAVE to be able to easily toss AT on this flop. Otherwise, your negative implied odds make calling AT a mistake pre.

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop but please don't fold preflop. PJ you nitbox.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

wow yea i'm the nittiest asian alive and i dont even think about folding PF

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop but please don't fold preflop. PJ you nitbox.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

wow yea i'm the nittiest asian alive and i dont even think about folding PF

[/ QUOTE ]

Despite considering "nitbox" a compliment, I'm wondering about the numbers here. Does anyone with a nice PT sample for FR hands know what their stats are for defending blinds with ATo against a non-steal raise? If you guys are calling ATo, are you calling A9o too? And if you are folding A9o like it's on fire, then why aren't you even considering folding ATo?

What about KJo? KTo? QJo? Does playing easily dominated hands out of position just not bother you because you play well enough postflop?

What's the worst offsuit hand you're calling here?

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

PJ: A villain's opening range in this spot includes hands like A9/A8/A7.(and their suited versions) Every hand we move farther down is significant and this doesn't even take the 1 straight we can make into account. I would venture to say that the jump from AT-->A9 is almost as signifcant as from AJ-->AT. After that, the gaps become smaller.

That said, this shouldn't degenerate into a preflop discussion. What are my most likely hands given my preflop call/flop donk?

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you guys are calling ATo, are you calling A9o too? And if you are folding A9o like it's on fire, then why aren't you even considering folding ATo?

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of the reason ATo is so much stronger than A9o is simply for the fact that you can make broadway. And with a KQJ board, there's high potential for a big payday.

OP mentioned that pre-flop raiser was "MP is aggressive preflop and passive and loose postflop.", so that would make ATo an ok spot to call, as long as you can play post-flop decently. For example, here I'd be folding to the SB donk easily. Turning the A is disastrous to QJ.

As an aside, if anyone is remotely paying attention, they will notice you are folding your big blind more often than normal. Your blind will become an easier and easier target to lighter raises as the game progresses.

Also am I the only one who doesn't like using PokerTracker statistics for live games? Players are so different online vs live. Seems to me like comparing apples to oranges.

"What about KJo? KTo? QJo?"

QJo almost has odds to flop an open-ended straight draw or a gutshot along with the assorted trip/two pair monster hands at 7:1.

The other two are really borderline. I'd probably fold those, but it's a case-by-case basis.

Garland

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone with a nice PT sample for FR hands know what their stats are for defending blinds with ATo against a non-steal raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

3 off the button is a steal-raise in my book.

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

[ QUOTE ]
PJ: A villain's opening range in this spot includes hands like A9/A8/A7.(and their suited versions) Every hand we move farther down is significant and this doesn't even take the 1 straight we can make into account. I would venture to say that the jump from AT-->A9 is almost as signifcant as from AJ-->AT. After that, the gaps become smaller.

That said, this shouldn't degenerate into a preflop discussion. What are my most likely hands given my preflop call/flop donk?

[/ QUOTE ]

pf is insta call for 1 bet closing action. AT very different than A9o. i call ATo in a second and fold A9o fairly readily barring specific read on opener 3 off button (but then again, i've seen some horrible opens at fw so i don't toss too much in the blinds).

your hands: QJs/KQs/KQo (given HJ's badness and MP's pf aggressiveness. i've seen K8o in that spot 3 off the button from an aggressive pf opener at FW) KJs/ JTs/ATs/KTs (though i'm not sure if you'd call the sb here w/ that) or bottom set given that MP/HJ can check around.

if you have 99/88 here this is a horrible flop to donk. i check fold them usually.

i can't imagine yoiu haveing QQ/JJ/AK(s)/TT/KK here so for you to donk you either have a flush draw, mid pair, top pair/not top kicker, top two (again if you call KTs here), or bottom set. i think the odds are heavily in favor of top pair or a set here since nobody is folding to yoru donk w/ the flush draw and you are going to give your hand away by checking the turn. i'd rather c'r a bb bet into the field w/ the flush draw than donk it.

given that range, i still think it is a fold from the BB on this flop w/ ATo b/c ATo is either behind already w/ people left ot act, ahead of you but not by much (b/c if it is ahead best case scenario is JTs and that is 1 hand, if not it is against a draw w/ many outs and squeezed between the field), behind others who are yet to act (and not folding out any K), or absolutely crushed. in fact, folding the flop is fairly easy given your range.

donking 66 on KK3 board is waaaaayyy different than betting into 3 people on a KTx cc board.

also, professor ben and ninawilliams, i'll be at FW tomorrow all day (leaving here like 7am so propbably be there from 9am-2or so am. i'm a chubby-ish 27y/o black shirt long sleave white undershirt. say hi if you see me.

Barron

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

[ QUOTE ]

also, professor ben and ninawilliams, i'll be at FW tomorrow all day (leaving here like 7am so propbably be there from 9am-2or so am. i'm a chubby-ish 27y/o black shirt long sleave white undershirt. say hi if you see me.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

He's also the reporter from the 2007 WSOP. Stalking Brad Garret was it?

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

[ QUOTE ]

What's the worst offsuit hand you're calling here?

[/ QUOTE ]

T7o I think. Depends on if you think 86o or 75o are worse or better than T7o.

I think preflop is fine and I'd fold the flop.

Rob

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

Follow Ups:
Are we raising if the SB is not known to be a solid TAG but has a more loose preflop range?
What about if we have the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]?
SB had KQ[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. How is his play?

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Follow Ups:
Are we raising if the SB is not known to be a solid TAG but has a more loose preflop range?
What about if we have the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]?
SB had KQ[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. How is his play?

[/ QUOTE ]

So yeah, he berated me for hours for folding this and said I was bad at poker an it hurt my lil feelings [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

Anyway, he claims his range should include a lot of T's. I'm not a big fan of donking a T here. Thoughts?

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

[ QUOTE ]


So yeah, he berated me for hours for folding this and said I was bad at poker an it hurt my lil feelings [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

Anyway, he claims his range should include a lot of T's. I'm not a big fan of donking a T here. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts are don't listen to Ben. Good fold.

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


So yeah, he berated me for hours for folding this and said I was bad at poker an it hurt my lil feelings [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

Anyway, he claims his range should include a lot of T's. I'm not a big fan of donking a T here. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts are don't listen to Ben. Good fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I berated her because I had been donking weak hands all weekend. She should have been taking notice of this and the obvious non-situation of me trying to level her in a 4-way pot. That and I would've made 2 more BB! [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


So yeah, he berated me for hours for folding this and said I was bad at poker an it hurt my lil feelings [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

Anyway, he claims his range should include a lot of T's. I'm not a big fan of donking a T here. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts are don't listen to Ben. Good fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I berated her because I had been donking weak hands all weekend. She should have been taking notice of this and the obvious non-situation of me trying to level her in a 4-way pot. That and I would've made 2 more BB! [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

looks like I was one step ahead [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: FW 20 I Donk(Hand Against Myself)
 

fwiw, I'm raising AT all day every day. My plan for the rest of the hand includes a lot of checking, maybe some folding, and if I only have to do it once, some calling. I also bet the river if AQJ9 or [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] have yet to make an appearance. It is just so unlikely for SB to have a king here. Seriously, if he has a king, he probably made a mistake PF, and our read of him is that he doesn't do that much. There are a ton of hands that make sense for him here, and we are ahead of them all. I've read all the replies, including the results, and it would be next to impossible for me to put SB on KQ[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I could, however, manage to put SB on 33. Why? because a TAG doesn't call KQ in the SB. In my book, that's either a fold or a 3bet, and I don't really care which.